Really, dad, racism is dumb.

[you_with_the_face]

@Contrapuntal

I never expressed offense, and her statement was “Everyone, and I mean everyone, suffers from internalized racism.” I have asked for clarification on that point. None has been forthcoming. Would you like to take a crack at it?

You may have not expressed offense but you responded with a defensive denial (“Not me.”) rather than address any of the other stuff in the OP. I saw no request for clarification from you, only protest. And unfortunately this appears to be a classic reaction whenever someone talks about race on this board.

I agree with the idea that “everyone is a little racist on the inside”. That everyone includes me, by the way. There are so many forces in our society that train us to group each other by race before all other traits, and its human nature to form certain beliefs about people based upon their particular group memberships. When those two things interact together on a societal level, odds are racism will be a signficant byproduct. Combine this interaction with the existence of certain racial disparities (like poverty) that only serve to reinforce stereotypes about a particular group (“black people are disproportionately poor because they are lazy and shiftless”; "blacks are disproportionately in jail because they’re bad people), then you should expect to see even more racism in the population. Some people will be more affected by it than others, but it would take a special person to be 100% immune from it all.

So, yeah, everyone probably has some racism inside of them. It’s not something to get bent out of shape about, but being aware of it can help it from causing problems.

[Contrapuntal]

@you with the face

You may have not expressed offense but you responded with a defensive denial (“Not me.”) rather than address any of the other stuff in the OP.

What would a non-defensive denial look like?

I saw no request for clarification from you, only protest. And unfortunately this appears to be a classic reaction whenever someone talks about race on this board.

You have not looked hard enough. Cite.

I agree with the idea that “everyone is a little racist on the inside”. That everyone includes me, by the way.

That is not what she said. You are agreeing with yourself. But, for the sake of the argument, assuming that is true, so what? What difference does it make what I think? It’s what I do that is or is not racist.

.There are so many forces in our society that train us to group each other by race before all other traits, and its human nature to form certain beliefs about people based upon their particular group memberships. When those two things interact together on a societal level, odds are racism will be a signficant byproduct. Combine this interaction with the existence of certain racial disparities (like poverty) that only serve to reinforce stereotypes about a particular group (“black people are disproportionately poor because they are lazy and shiftless”; "blacks are disproportionately in jail because they’re bad people), then you should expect to see even more racism in the population. Some people will be more affected by it than others, but it would take a special person to be 100% immune from it all.

I search in vain for the active voice. I need specifics, dangit!

So, yeah, everyone probably has some racism inside of them.

Not me. And, at any rate, I am not suffering from internalized racism. For that matter, does a Grand Dragon suffer from internalized racism? It’s pretty much all right out there in front.

It’s not something to get bent out of shape about, but being aware of it can help it from causing problems.

If I am bent out of shape, it is at the sloppy thinking in the OP, not at the accusation of racism. Why should I be offended at an accusation that includes the entire human race?

[Miller]

@Zsofia

For that matter, you should see his dad trying to talk to me - “So, how about them Cocks?”

“Well, your son’s is pretty nice…”

[Contrapuntal]

@Miller

“Well, your son’s is pretty nice…”

Well, they are the Fighting Cocks, if that changes anything for you. And the women are the Lady Cocks. Just sayin’

[Omega_Glory]

@JeffB

Let me guess – you’re Tiger Woods and the host was Fuzzy Zoeller?

No. I hate golf.

Honestly, I’ve never even heard of Fuzzy Zoeller, so I don’t get the reference.

[Contrapuntal]

@Omega Glory

No. I hate golf.

Honestly, I’ve never even heard of Fuzzy Zoeller, so I don’t get the reference.

Every year at the Masters Tournament there is a Champions dinner. The defending champion chooses the menu. When it was Tiger’s turn, Fuzzy Zoeler (a past champion) remarked that it would probably be fried chicken and watermelon. He is known for a wacky sense of humor, but everyone agreed he pretty much stepped into it with that remark.

[you_with_the_face]

@Contrapuntal

Not me. And, at any rate, I am not suffering from internalized racism. For that matter, does a Grand Dragon suffer from internalized racism? It’s pretty much all right out there in front.

So your beef is with the use of the word “suffer” and not with the implication that everyone has racist beliefs? Or am I being whooshed?

[Contrapuntal]

@you with the face

So your beef is with the use of the word “suffer” and not with the implication that everyone has racist beliefs? Or am I being whooshed?

No. My beef is that “everyone suffers from internalized racism” is an incoherent statement, absent specific definitions for ‘everyone’ ‘suffers’ and ‘racism.’ Let’s take one possible interpretation to be, as you suggest, “everyone is a little bit racist inside.” My responses are these –
A) Surely not everybody, although she makes it quite clear that that is what she means. A six-month old child? A member of an isolated tribe in South America that has never seen another race? Jimmy Carter? Morris Dees?

B) Plenty of folks who are racists do not internalize it; in fact, they revel in it, and cannot properly said to be suffering at all.

C) If everyone is a little bit racist, then so what so what? It merely becomes part of the human condition, and there is nothing to be done about it.

I am going to channel the active voice, and assert that no matter what vile, degrading, racist beliefs I may hold, until I commit an overt act based upon them, no racism has occurred. Now, I pretty much hold that everything short of just thinking racist thoughts constitutes an overt act, but still. Thoughts are the domain of no one but the thinker. The OP has no business telling me what mine are.

As an experiment, if you are willing, why don’t you ask me some specific questions, which I will promise to answer as honestly as I can, to show me exactly how I am internally racist?

Or, alternately, you could answer the questions in the post I linked.

[Excalibre]

@Contrapuntal

@you with the face

There are so many forces in our society that train us to group each other by race before all other traits, and its human nature to form certain beliefs about people based upon their particular group memberships. When those two things interact together on a societal level, odds are racism will be a signficant byproduct. Combine this interaction with the existence of certain racial disparities (like poverty) that only serve to reinforce stereotypes about a particular group (“black people are disproportionately poor because they are lazy and shiftless”; "blacks are disproportionately in jail because they’re bad people), then you should expect to see even more racism in the population. Some people will be more affected by it than others, but it would take a special person to be 100% immune from it all.

I search in vain for the active voice. I need specifics, dangit!

I’ve taken the liberty of highlighting in red all clauses whose verbs are in the active voice so that you can find them more easily. (Arguably, Some people will be more affected by it than others may also be in the active voice, as it seems to me the adverb more modifying affected suggests a copula plus an adjective rather than a true instance of the passive voice.)

[LonesomePolecat]

@Miller

So, how long have you been psychic?

Ain’t got nothin’ to do with psychic. It’s just common sense. People who think they’re completely free of all racial, ethnic, religious or class prejudice are kidding themselves.

[Contrapuntal]

@Excalibre

I’ve taken the liberty of highlighting in red all clauses whose verbs are in the active voice so that you can find them more easily. (Arguably, Some people will be more affected by it than others may also be in the active voice, as it seems to me the adverb more modifying affected suggests a copula plus an adjective rather than a true instance of the passive voice.)

Well, you’re probably right. Bad usage on my part. What I am looking for is an affirmative statement of specific facts, rather than just saying that forces do this or that, and such and such a thing results. Thanks for the correction.

[Silver_Pageant]

Hey everybody! As stated by you with the face I didn’t call my dad a member of the KKK or anything. He made a dumb assumption based on prejudices surrounding my friend’s race! It was well-intentioned, but still kind of a fuckup.

My dad is not into basketball and not a bore, and has totally interesting things to talk about. We have guests over often and he comes to school functions often, and I haven’t heard him bring up basketball in years. DrDeth, the thing my dad brings up with everyone is music and computers. It’s not a guy thing, it’s a my dad being weird thing. Although if you didn’t knew my dad, I can understand thinking that! Should have made as much clear in the OP.

I didn’t yell at him, I didn’t get steaming mad, I quietly took him aside and gave him a short talk.

My main problem was not that he did this, because, like that Avenue Q song says, everyone’s a little bit racist sometimes. My main problem is that he denied it and got really weird and defensive. That’s what got me mad.

Today, we had a talk about it. He admitted it and apologised, there was some earnest shoulder-clasping, and then we returned to discussing who would make dinner.

Uvula Donor! My dad doesn’t know very many of my friends, but we know each other very well and have a pretty okay relationship. My school is a public high school and my parents aren’t paying thousands of dollars to send me there, I just had to go through an interview process. Whether I’m a priveleged little whiny shit is, uh, neither here nor there. I’m a middle class white kid growing up in a pretty crime-free area who gets an okay education, which does make me pretty priveleged, but I’m not driven to school every day in a Rolls, or anything!

Hey Contrapuntal and Miller, I still think everyone has internalized racist prejudices (is that phrasing better?). Sorry. It’s not a personal attack on anyone or an attempt to hold myself up as morally superior, it’s just the way things work from what I’ve found. And yeah, everyone suffers from it, italics and everything.

Also: I am a boy. Don’t worry, though. It happens!

[Contrapuntal]

@LonesomePolecat

Ain’t got nothin’ to do with psychic. It’s just common sense. People who think they’re completely free of all racial, ethnic, religious or class prejudice are kidding themselves.

Common sense. Brilliant! An insurmountable argument. Well played, sir.
Oh, just one thing. Who has made such a remarkable claim? Perhaps you have posted in the wrong thread?

[Contrapuntal]

@Silver Pageant

Hey Contrapuntal and Miller, I still think everyone has internalized racist prejudices (is that phrasing better?). Sorry. It’s not a personal attack on anyone or an attempt to hold myself up as morally superior, it’s just the way things work from what I’ve found.

A six month old child? Morris Dees? A member of a South American tribe who is unaware that other races exist? Respectfully, I submit that if you are still in high school, you are insufficiently experienced to make any judgments about everybody, based on how you see things work.

And yeah, everyone suffers from it, italics and everything.

Define suffer, please.

Also: I am a boy. Don’t worry, though. It happens!

Apologies.

[Yeticus_Rex]

@Contrapuntal

Every year at the Masters Tournament there is a Champions dinner. The defending champion chooses the menu. When it was Tiger’s turn, Fuzzy Zoeler (a past champion) remarked that it would probably be fried chicken and watermelon. He is known for a wacky sense of humor, but everyone agreed he pretty much stepped into it with that remark.

He didn’t just step into it, he jumped in with both feet…

Wikipedia

@Wiki

Zoeller’s comments at the Masters were: “That little boy is driving well and he’s putting well. He’s doing everything it takes to win. So, you know what you guys do when he gets in here? You pat him on the back and say congratulations and enjoy it and tell him not to serve fried chicken next year. Got it?”

Then Zoeller smiled, snapped his fingers, and walked away. Then he turned and added, “or collard greens or whatever the hell they serve.” In reference to the food, Zoeller was referring to the following year’s Master’s Club Champion’s Dinner. The defending champion selects the menu. Incidentally, Woods chose cheeseburgers, chicken sandwiches, French fries and milkshakes.

[DrDeth]

@Silver Pageant

My dad is not into basketball and not a bore, and has totally interesting things to talk about. We have guests over often and he comes to school functions often, and I haven’t heard him bring up basketball in years. DrDeth, the thing my dad brings up with everyone is music and computers. It’s not a guy thing, it’s a my dad being weird thing. Although if you didn’t knew my dad, I can understand thinking that! Should have made as much clear in the OP.

No problem, and you’re right, I don’t know your dad. Sports is a “dad thing” pretty often. “Hey how about them new Pentium Processors?”

[you_with_the_face]

@Contrapuntal

Let’s take one possible interpretation to be, as you suggest, “everyone is a little bit racist inside.” My responses are these –
A) Surely not everybody, although she makes it quite clear that that is what she means. A six-month old child? A member of an isolated tribe in South America that has never seen another race? Jimmy Carter? Morris Dees?

When you say stuff like this, that’s when I think you’re kidding. I have such a hard time believing that the existence of guiless six-month old babies makes you balk at an off-hand generalization about human nature to the point of calling it incoherent.

B) Plenty of folks who are racists do not internalize it; in fact, they revel in it, and cannot properly said to be suffering at all.

You’re complaining about the use of the word “suffer”. As if the word only has one rigid interpretation. As if it can only mean the “sufferer” has to be aware that they are “suffering”. As if the usage of the word “suffer” as opposed to “harbor” or “have” actually affects the message conveyed by the OP. Again, I have to wonder if you aren’t really whooshing me.

C) If everyone is a little bit racist, then so what so what? It merely becomes part of the human condition, and there is nothing to be done about it.

Not true. Greed and self-interest is part of the “human condition”, too, but we don’t condone stealing and ruthlessness, do we? Thoughts are one thing, our actions are another. But that doesn’t mean that the same adjectives can’t be used to describe them.

I am going to channel the active voice, and assert that no matter what vile, degrading, racist beliefs I may hold, until I commit an overt act based upon them, no racism has occurred.

But I notice that you call these beliefs “racist”. Thus, racism would be inside of you, just as I said it is in everybody.

As an experiment, if you are willing, why don’t you ask me some specific questions, which I will promise to answer as honestly as I can, to show me exactly how I am internally racist?

If you were to see me and think “there goes another nigger” and I could read your mind, what should I consider you? Regardless of how you actually treat me, would it be wrong of me to feel uncomfortable around you? Would it be unreasonable to call your unvoiced opinions about me racist? Should I devote a whole bunch of effort in pinning down exactly what word to call you, or should I just conclude that you have some really fucked up ideas spinning around in that mind of yours and call it a day?

You tell me.

[Silver_Pageant]

@Contrapuntal

A six month old child? Morris Dees? A member of a South American tribe who is unaware that other races exist? Respectfully, I submit that if you are still in high school, you are insufficiently experienced to make any judgments about everybody, based on how you see things work.

I think: Yes, yes, and upon contacting other races, especially yes!

I will make hypothesis and judgements whether I’m experienced enough or not, as people are (I think) wont to do. Respectfully, I submit that many young people, who are perhaps still in high school, are full of interesting, well-formed ideas about humanity. I may not be one of them, but, uhh… Hey, look over there, it’s a cactus!

Define suffer, please.

‘To undergo or feel pain or distress’, says dictionary.com.

I think assumptions about people’s opinions, actions, clothing, whatever, are painful to deal with.

Apologies.

Not at all!

[Gary_Robson]

I just can’t see Dad’s behavior here as “racist.” Here’s a definition I found for racism at dictionary.com:

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

The OP’s dad stereotyped, perhaps, but that isn’t even remotely close to racism. And are we sure it’s a racial thing? I’m 6’4" tall (193 cm for non-US dopers), and people regularly try to use basketball as an icebreaker. How tall is the OP’s friend? Did the hoodie worn by the OP’s friend have a sports logo on it? Was the friend wearing basketball-style shoes? There are lots of things that could have caused the dad to pick basketball (yes, it’s a guy thing), and I don’t see any of them leading to a belief that dad’s race is superior or has the right to rule over the friend’s race.

[Contrapuntal]

@you with the face

When you say stuff like this, that’s when I think you’re kidding. I have such a hard time believing that the existence of guiless six-month old babies makes you balk at an off-hand generalization about human nature to the point of calling it incoherent.

And here is where I have a hard time not believing that you are deliberately misunderstanding me. **All **of the elements made it incoherent, not just one. I have pointed this out multiple times, and it is dishonest of you to pretend otherwise.

You’re complaining about the use of the word “suffer”. As if the word only has one rigid interpretation. As if it can only mean the “sufferer” has to be aware that they are “suffering”. As if the usage of the word “suffer” as opposed to “harbor” or “have” actually affects the message conveyed by the OP. Again, I have to wonder if you aren’t really whooshing me.

You will note that I the used “harbor” myself, which makes you the second person to offer a definition. Now that we have one we agree on, we can proceed.

Not true. Greed and self-interest is part of the “human condition”, too, but we don’t condone stealing and ruthlessness, do we? Thoughts are one thing, our actions are another. But that doesn’t mean that the same adjectives can’t be used to describe them.

We sure don’t by golly! However, your false equivalency does little to shed light on why, if everybody is a little bit racist, the point even needs to be made. (Greed != stealing, self-interest != ruthlessness.)

But I notice that you call these beliefs “racist”. Thus, racism would be inside of you, just as I said it is in everybody.

And utterly meaningless if it never led to a racist act. Condemning someone for his thoughts is a bit too Orwellian for my taste.

Do you intend to answer the questions I asked directly, or merely, as in this instance, by inference?

If you were to see me and think “there goes another nigger” and I could read your mind, what should I consider you?

Again, you have missed what to me was expressed with crystal clarity. Ask me questions about me, and judge from the answers whether I am racist. Unless you are assuming that that thought represents my own, in which case here’s a hearty FUCK YOU.

Regardless of how you actually treat me, would it be wrong of me to feel uncomfortable around you? Would it be unreasonable to call your unvoiced opinions about me racist? Should I devote a whole bunch of effort in pinning down exactly what word to call you, or should I just conclude that you have some really fucked up ideas spinning around in that mind of yours and call it a day?

You tell me.

If you could read my mind, the world would be a far different place, but yeah, you should conclude thaI have some fucked up ideas and call it a day. Why should you care what I think?

On preview, it appears that the OP does in fact believe that a six month child suffers from internalized racism, and also meant “suffer” as “be in pain.” FWIW.

I think: Yes, yes, and upon contacting other races, especially yes!

Weird.

I will make hypothesis and judgements whether I’m experienced enough or not, as people are (I think) wont to do. Respectfully, I submit that many young people, who are perhaps still in high school, are full of interesting, well-formed ideas about humanity. I may not be one of them, but, uhh… Hey, look over there, it’s a cactus!

Absolutely. Not the same thing at all as claiming to know what is in everyone’s heart, however. You are entitled to your own ideas, just not your own facts.