Well, and you found a lot of rabbis who didn’t share his opinion at the time. There were a bunch of actively abolitionist synagogues in America prior to the Civil War. As you can imagine, most American religious bodies were divided about the issue at the time.
Sorry, Opus1, I am (to use an old Marvel Comics term) a True Believer.
As a TB (no, not the disease!), I do believe that the Pentatuch was dictated by God.
Zev Steinhardt
I’m sorry andros, I misunderstood your question. Please allow me to re-answer.
If something is not explicitly forbidden, then we, as a society (or as individuals) can forbid it to ourselves, if we so wish.
For example, I can take an oath not to eat tomatoes. Tomatoes are not forbidden under Jewish law. However, after I take this oath, it is forbidden for me to eat them.
Similarly, as a group, we (or our leaders) can choose to forbid certain activities. One such example is polygamy, which can no longer be performed.
It’s not so much as being trumped, as it is deciding that never every thing that we are allowed to do must be done.
Zev Steinhardt
How about spelling right out? Anyone who believes that the Bible is an accurate depiction of the will of God is WRONG! If it was, it would condemn slavery (it would also warn against harming the environment). Slavery is extremely immoral, always has, always will be. Immorality is defined as actions which cause unacceptable levels of harm, not what is in some people’s opinions the will of God.
People are entitled to their opinions, of course (and these are my opinions, it’s just that mine make sense), but these opinions/beliefs are supposed to be based on faith, and faith is a personal choice. You can’t treat these beliefs as laws and impose them on others, or make direct claims and be credible. You have to have good reasons. Obviously slavery was well-established in ancient cultures and the Bible is a reflection of one of them. Judaism may have permitted slavery, but that doesn’t mean God does.
Therefore claims that God prohibits homosexuality are baseless.
Gaudere:
This rule is based on the assumption that if the slave managed to survive the beating, then the master obviously didn’t intend to murder him.
I’ll have to look that up. I know it’s Talmudically derived rather than explicit in the Torah, but even so, that points to how Judaic slaves of old were treated.
Chaim Mattis Keller
So if I attempt to murder someone, but the intended victim survives, it’s not an intended murder?
Zev,
I appreciate your patience while answering what you apparently feel is the same question time and again. However, I think your answer, quoted above, is a bit too rehearsed and pat. You really haven’t addressed my question. Let me rephrase, and please correct any misconceptions:
- The Torah, and the Bible for Christians, is the final, ultimate authority on morality.
- We now, rightfully, consider slavery to be morally wrong.
- The Torah explicitly allows, and thereby condones, slavery.
- If #2 is correct, then the Torah and the Bible are, at least, flawed for not prohibiting a moral wrong.
- If #4 is true, as I contend, then the scriptures are not infallible.
- If the scriptures are fallible, then we are required to evaluate the commandments to differentiate what is truly immoral from what is canonized superstition, bias and bigotry.
There is a major flaw in your oft-stated, legal hair-splitting explanation of the differences between permitted and prohibited actions. The problem is a logical disconnect. Under these rules, slavery is allowed, but eating pork is immoral and prohibited. In other words, a crime against humanity is allowed, but a culinary practice becomes the concern of a deity.
People have freewill and intelligence. I think God requires us to use these attributes. Part of thinking is evaluating the dogma we’ve been given and recognizing when there is a grievous error and then correcting that error. Otherwise you’ve become guilty of violating the first commandment and established the scripture as your idol.
I’m not suggesting that you, personally, would support the biblical commandment that homosexual men be put to death. However, I believe that people of conscience must speak out against wrong, especially when that wrong comes wrapped in the robes of religion and God. To do less is immoral.
Czarcasm:
Well, sure it’s an intended murder…but what society gives the same punishment for attemted murder as for murder?
And that’s not the issue in that Biblical scenario anyway. In that case, the point is to determine intent. The fact that the slave was able to survive the beating leads to the conclusion that there was not intent to murder in the first place, making the master’s crime more akin to what we nowadays call manslaughter.
Chaim Mattis Keller
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Well, I can’t speak for Christians, but go on…
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Go on, I’m listening…
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You still have to consider that while the commandments in the Torah are binding (on Jews anyway) eternally, it is still a product of it’s time. It’s possible for socitey to move away from certain concepts and no longer practice them. Slavery is one. Polygamy, for example, is another.
At the time the Torah was given, slavery was considered a norm. As a document for dealing with society as it then existed, it had to include laws for dealing with slavery, polygamy and the like. Just because a certain right exists, that doesn’t mean that we must choose to exercise it.
There are certain things that the Torah permits because they are viewed as a necessary evil. Divorce, for example, is one. No one will argue that the Torah tells people to divorce their spouses. However, the Torah recognized it as a necessary evil and permits it.
The same could be said of slavery. At the time the Torah was given, slavery (like polygamy) was a necessary evil. However, we, as a society, have moved beyond that. As such, we can voluntarily ban such practices.
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As has been demonstrated, societal morals can change. A thousand years ago, I don’t think you would have found anyone saying slavery was immoral. Who’s to say that a thousand years from now slavery will be considered moral again (God forbid!). The question then becomes, what is a moral wrong?
You consider it a moral wrong to kill someone (I presume). The Nazis wouldn’t have considered it morally wrong to kill someone. The anicent Greeks considered it moral to leave a crippled child out to die of exposure. Folks at PETA consider wearing fur to be immoral. Some folks consider circumcision to be immoral (mutilating a poor helpless infant). Just because you and I consider slavery a moral wrong doesn’t mean that everyone else believes so. The point is, there are no absolute morals other than those God-given. Of course, if you don’t believe that the Torah is from God, then we’re back to square one.
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See above.
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See above concerning whether slavery is a crime against humanity. We (modern-day Americans) hold it to be so, but there are alot of people in the world who would disagree with you.
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That’s not true. Jews believe that the Pentatuch was written by God. One does not “correct the error of the Diety.” I’m sorry if that sounds closed-minded to you, but if God, for whatever reason, allowed provisions for slavery, then they exist. We don’t have to avail ourselves of them (and can voluntarily forbid ourselves from doing so), but they exist nonetheless and cannot be changed.
Zev Steinhardt
I mean no disrespect, but that is precisely the issue I have with relying on the scriptures for moral grounding. I respect that you allow that society can add prohibitions for things permitted but now deemed immoral. But where I take issue is with the refusal to acknowledge that some of the prohibitions have more to do with the time they were written than with true morality; and as such amendable. However, I understand that by asserting that the scriptures are fallible I am rejecting your premise that the Pentateuch was written by God.
I guess the best we can get on this issue is that we agree to disagree on this theological point. This does, however, point to an essential reason why societal laws must be kept separate from scriptural laws.
I also appreciate that fact that you and, from my experience, other Jews don’t try to convert us non-believers to your faith.
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That’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion.
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I don’t have a problem with that insofar as we shouldn’t have a theocratic state. However, just because a law appears in the Bible doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be implemented here. What I’m saying is that you can’t just take a stand and say “Well, that’s in the Bible, so because of SOCAS we can’t have that here.”
Zev Steinhardt
And on what grounds, pray tell, would they base their disagreement?
That’s a very good question sqweels. I don’t know. Ask some Sudanese people. I’m sure they can explain their reasons.
Zev Steinhardt
It seems to me they knew less about human sexuality then than they do now.
And a thousand years from now, I’m really hoping people will look at today’s attitudes towards sexual orientation and see it as equally unjustified.
It continues to boggle me that we can argue that human enslavement can or cannot be moral, but how two people live their lives, hurting no one, is a sin.
Esprix
Religious conservatives often decry “moral relativism” and claim to embrace “absolute truth”, but Zev seems to be saying that whether or not slavery is immoral is relative to which culture you belong to.
I believe that the absolute truth is out there, and if two groups disagree, then at least one of them is wrong. And although an absolutely perfect grasp of the moral truth is elusive, when it comes to slavery, it’s pretty well settled: Slavery is always wrong. And if the Bible doesn’t agree, then that says something about the Bible.
I have read all of the former posts and thought I might be able to humbly add a few things. Let’s start with slavery and the Bible/Thora. Yes slavery is permitted under the OT however you are required to release them after a certain term of servitude. I believe it is seven years and is regardless of how they became slaves. The law both in the Thora and Talmud is fairly clear as to how they are to be treated. The harsh cruelty that was inflicted on the slaves kept by owners in the Americas prior to the civil war are forbidden by Jewish law. Slavery in the OT has much more in common with indentured servitude than the the form it took in the U.S. pre civil war.
As for homosexuality, well sorry it is forbidden by OT law. As far as NT law you got me, but the reason it was prohibited goes back to God’s commandment to be fruitfull and multiply. We hebrews have allways been a minority and the law was put in place by God to ensure our continued survival. The Thora tells us that it is not our place to judge others, but to lead by example. The OT is filled with instances where Jews were required to live in places where God’s laws were not in force. What did the Jews do? Well we moved, or tried to set an example other could and would follow. We let God take care of the bigger issues as it should be.
I personally have no problems with homosexuals because it’s not for me to decide whether it is wrong or right. God only gave us ten laws and I can’t find one that says homosexuals can’t get into heaven. All other sins are forgiveable. As for the people of the OT and for that matter the NT not being as sexually aware as we are today I beg to differ. You should watch the serries Sex and the Bible on A&E I think it was very informitave on this subject.
The first post is all screwed up. Please disregard. If only I had moderator powers and could delete it.
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This requirement only applied to Jewish slaves, not slaves of other ethnic groups.
And that’s why Hagar sought to escape twice? Slavery is slavery. Degrees of harsh treatment are irrelevant and apologetic. In contrast to your statment, refer to the previous post concerning the acceptability of beating slaves as long as you don’t kill them.
So sex after menopause is a sin? Sex between people who have physical conditions that prevent conception is wrong? Sex during the time of the month when a woman is not fertile is wrong?
If only FCs would follow that rule.
I’ll agree for the most part. Those 10 commandments (don’t kill, don’t steal, etc.) are fairly good guidelines for how to live peacefully within society.
Why does it boggle you?
Many people who otherwise approve of homosexual behavior would disapprove of adult consensual incest, even though they are living “their lives, hurting no one.”
Many people who otherwise approve of homosexual behavior would disapprove of polygamy, even though they are living “their lives, hurting no one.”
Zev Steinhardt
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Yes, that’s true. However, even non-Jewish slaves could not be mistreated.
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Correction. Hagar ran away once. She left after Sarah mistreated her. And in no way is Sarah’s treatment of Hagar condoned. The second time she was sent away (freed).
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That may be the case today, but it wasn’t thousands of years ago. Hey, I’m all for the banning of slavery in today’s world.
Zev Steinhardt
Not quite. I do believe in absolute truth. However, I don’t expect you to accept what I say is the absolute truth on my say-so.
Again, sqweels, I agree with you that slavery is wrong. However, I have to qualify that by saying that that statement is true only in our day and age. If you lived in ancient Egypt, I highly doubt you’d find anyone (even slaves) who thought that slavery was a moral wrong.
Who knows? Maybe we ourselves are leading immoral lives? Who’s to say that a thousand years from now, people will look back at the 20th/21st centuries and say “Why, those people were immoral… they ate meat!!” And it might seem obvious to them (at that point) that eating meat is an immoral act and is “pretty well settled.” The point is this: you can say slavery is immoral. But you have to place that statement of yours within the context of the time and place where you live.
Zev Steinhardt