The Bible, homosexuality, and my friend Keith

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Keith is a conservative Christian; I’m also a Christian but a liberal as these things go. At lunch on Friday, we got to talking about the Supreme Court’s recent legalization of same-sex marriage, which he opposed and I supported. That led to this email exchange (lightly edited), which I thought might be of interest to my fellow Dopers:

He wrote:

*Here is a biblical reference website called “got questions” that I often use to clear up any issues in which I lack clarity. The articles are concise and straightforward. The first article is on homosexuality. The second one is on the Old Testament law.

Keith *

I replied:

Thanks, Keith. Obviously I don’t agree with the content of the first link you sent. The Old Testament proscriptions against homosexuality (as found in Genesis and Leviticus) are, I suggest, quite properly on the same level for most Christians today as the bans on pork, shellfish, divorce, haircuts or clothes of more than one material - to say nothing of the acceptance of slavery (Exod. 21, Lev. 25:44).

So let us turn to the New Testament sections to which the website refers. Each of them is from one of St. Paul’s epistles. As to his criticism of homosexuality, remember that he also said that women must remain silent in church (1 Cor. 14:33-35), not teach or hold authority over men (1 Tim. 2: 9-15), and always submit to their husbands (Eph. 5:22–30). I presume you do not agree with St. Paul on these points, nor live your life in accordance with his teachings.

Clearly the first-century church was not the church of the United States in 2015.

He wrote:

*I understand your point. However, we still must make distinctions with Paul’s instructions. One passage (1 Corinthians) refers to our salvation which is the bottom line of Christianity. The other passages discuss the makeup and administration of duties in the church. We have to acknowlege these distinctions and not categorize these scriptures within the same context. *

I replied:

God made us reasoning beings, capable of interpreting His word and those of His prophets. Do you follow every one of St. Paul’s teachings? Do you insist that your wife do the same, or shun her when she does not? I suspect not. Then why obey his teachings on homosexuality? Because, I respectfully suggest, you choose to.

He wrote:

*At the end of the day the love of and relationship with Christ is more important than the rules. God, out of his great love, gave us ways that we should live. Similar to the way we tell out kids to stay away from the street while they are playing. We tell them this because we love them. It’s all about love. He told us that marriage was supposed to be between a man and a woman because he loves us and wants the best for us. Marriage in other forms can be workable but that doesn’t mean that the workable form is the intended form. I can fill my car with water and take a bath inside. That doesn’t mean that I’m making the best use of my car by bathing in it. The manufacturer created the car for a specific purpose. *

I wrote back:

You sidestepped my questions, Keith.

Of course I agree that love of God and His Son is vitally important. But many things in life - including cars - have multiple purposes, and God’s love can be manifested in more ways than we can possibly imagine. Gay people love each other just as much as straight people. They are human beings who love, hate, dream, awaken, suffer, heal, build, destroy, worship or sleep in on Sunday morning and eventually die just as we do. And now they can legally marry throughout this great republic, too, and I think that’s very much for the best.

You may disagree, but we can still love each other as friends and fellow Christians, and I hope we always will.

He replied:

*We definitely will. I enjoyed having lunch with you the other day. I hope to have other times in which we can get together. I even hope that we can continue to be free to discuss difficult things. I’ve much appreciated your input on this topic.

Keith *

And that’s where things stand. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.

2

Serious reply: It’s an interesting dialog which I suspect is capable of supporting a long exchange. I doubt if it will come to a resolution though.

Silly Reply:
. A: The Bible, homosexuality, and my friend Keith
. Q: Name three things that a politician might embrace in order to gain votes.

3

Can you ask Keith something like this:

I understand you hold that the Bible instructs that homosexuality, and gay marriage, is immoral. But I assume you don’t believe that everything immoral must be barred by law – you don’t believe, for example, that worshipping other gods should be barred by law, or having sex outside of marriage should be barred by law, correct? So why must gay marriage be barred by law? Why is it not sufficient, in your mind, to simply disapprove of homosexuality and gay marriage, and teach others (if you wish) that they are immoral?

4

I found the exchange disappointingly civil and well-reasoned. :wink:

As someone who agrees with you both on the specifics of the issue in question and the scriptural reasoning behind it, I enjoyed reading it. Always nice when someone says what you were thinking, only with greater clarity and eloquence than you yourself would have been able to muster. :slight_smile:

5

Personally I think the important question, at the heart of all such discussions, should be;

“Do you, as a Christian, have the authority to judge those who simply sin differently than you?”

I always form this question in my head, when observing such discussions, but no one ever seems to ask it!

It was remarkably civil, so good on both of you, well done!

6

Thanks, all. I didn’t quote her, but I always liked this remark by Susan B. Anthony: “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”

7

Which is interesting, Elendil’s Heir, because I notice that you seem quite clear that God wants you (and practising Christians, I do not know whether you are one) to ignore both the Old Testament proscriptions on homosexuality and what St Paul has to say on the matter. Anthony’s Razor, I respectfully suggest, is not only keen but double-edged.

8

Neither Wiki nor Google mention Anthony’s Razor. What does it mean?

I said in the first sentence of the OP that I am a Christian. I certainly concede that I could be wrong. But my wrongness, if it is that, is based on loving and accepting others, which Christ placed second only to loving God, so I can live with that.

9

I’m pretty sure “Anthony’s Razor” is a pithy characterization of your Susan B. quote from the post immediately before. :cool:

10

If one is to take the Old Testament proscription seriously (and I understand that, as Christians, one may not), it is to be noted that the Old Testament only proscribes male homosexuality - it is completely silent on the subject of female homosexuality.

Is God, then, indifferent to Lesbianism?

11

Lesbianism is condemned in the New Testament, although not in the Old.

Regards,
Shodan

12

:smack:

13

Even if you accept that god hates gay marriage, that says nothing about US law. If you’re talking about the supreme court case, then that entire discussion is irrelevant. If the case was just the impetus for biblical scholarship, then carry on.

14

Well, I’m Jewish, so my knowledge of the New isn’t up to scratch. To this day, Orthodox Jews make a distinction between the two …

It seems an odd sort of thing for God to have changed his mind on. But I guess Christians get to eat shellfish, so it all evens out in the end. :wink:

15

He might be very much in favor of it. Based on my experience with documentaries on late night Cinemax it seems pretty awesome. YMMV, of course.

16

“I asked my girlfriend if she’d ever slept with a woman. She said no. I said, ‘You should try it, it’s great.’ So she did and now she’s gone.” - Steven Wright

17

I agree that this is a good line of questions. Jesus specifically spoke of divorce and was not in favor of it, but I’m fairly sure never mentioned homosexuality. If you really want to follow the Bible, it seems that if same-sex marriage should be illegal, then so should divorce, adultery, and plenty of other things.

18

But doesn’t expect the law to injunct owners from taking a bath in it, or filling it with compost and planting flowers in it, if they wish. Nor indeed would they argue that they are better placed than the legislature to decide on how the uses of cars,on the road or off, are best regulated for the public good.

19

I make this argument a lot. Many of the folk who vociferously condemn homosexuality are surprisingly muted on the subject of adultery, yet consider: the OT lumps homosexuality in with shrimp, tattoos and mixed-fiber clothing, but God Himself devoted a whole Commandment to it. In the NT Jesus said nothing at all about gays and the passing mentions by Paul are so rare there’s scholarly arguments over whether he meant all homosexuals or temple prostitutes, but Jesus went out of his way to personally condemn adultery. So why is it that gays are the target of such vitriol from the Religious Right when God’s priorities are clearly elsewhere?

20

If you could communicate with St. Paul, and put this dispute up to him, do you think he would agree with you or Keith?