The Bible Vs homosexuality, but this thred is going to be different...

Great Debates
1

… Or at least, I hope so, at least for a little while, perhaps.

I attend a church house group; this is a group of perhaps 8 to 12 individuals (depending on attendance) meeting midweek on an informal, sometimes purely social basis.

Most of the other folks in the group are either fairly reasonable, moderate Christians, or if not so moderate in their own views, are at least very tolerant of the views and sometime apparent cynicism of their more liberal brethren.

With one exception… the BIG question of human sexuality.

The subject has been edged around in a number of discussions recently, but never addressed directly, but the time is fast approaching when it’s going to land on the table. I wish to be prepared for this moment.

Invariably, debates on such broad issues wander about on all sorts of unproductive and distracting sidetracks and seldom is the end of debate ever reached. I’m thinking about putting together a short list of questions/statements that will provoke focussed, incisive debate on the key issues involved and I can’t think of a better place to formulate them than right here.

The sort of thing I’m looking for is succinct questions or statements that cut right to the heart of the matter, for example:
What exactly is it about homosexuality that makes some people think it is wrong?

We can, if you wish, let this thread turn into a debate, conventional or otherwise, on the general topic of Christianity/religion and Homosexuality, but for the moment, I’d like to try to stick to the pre-debate task of formulating the questions that unearth the root issues. I’m quite happy for these questions to be posed from any angle or viewpoint, as long as they cut right past all the rhetoric, waffle and bullshit.

2

Because Paul said it is. We all know Paul is the big Kahuna in Christianity. Jesus is a distant second.

Oh…for those of you that are going to bring up Old Testement verses.

Once Jesus took over…the old testement became history.

3

Right or wrong, sinful or not, how should Christians behave/interact with people of alternate sexualities?

That’s one thing that just never seems to come up with everyone so busy about arguing the nature, origins, sinfulness, etc. of homosexuality.

4

Please read the question again… all of it this time.

5

My guess: oogyness. Some people just get the heebie jeebies from the thought of same-sex sex. Then they translate their personal horrors into a bombastic vicious pseudo-morality.

Another idea is that men are traditionaly supposed to be the agressor in sexual relationships. The idea of a man being the reciever, if you will, freaks some men out, and again they translate their freaked outness into bombastic moralizing.

With lesbians, I suppose men might worry that if it’s O.K. for chicks to, you know, do it with other chicks they might not need us any more. We can’t have that!

Of course this only describes why men might get freaked about homosexuality.

6

Sorry, I think I may have mis-read your OP.

If I did I’m not sure what you are looking for.

7

The bottom line, for Bible-oriented Christians, is that Scripture – their translation of it, at least – deems homosexual acts to be sinful – and hence, the desire for them to be likewise sinful. In this methodology, where “sins” are discrete acts that one is supposed to avoid, the righteous are supposed not to continue sinning. (We can get into the nature of sin, the question of the accuracy of those translations, etc., only if you want to go there.) Ergo, anyone who willfully commits homosexual acts, or unrepentantly and proudly claims that he has a desire to do so, is intentionally sinning, and must be shown the error of his ways by the righteous who have been saved and who do not willfully sin.

Needless to say, this is not anything close to my understanding of what sin, or one’s Christian duty, entails. But it’s as close to an accurate answer to the question posed in the OP as I’m capable of.

8

Sorry, **Poly (and others); I’m looking for more questions like the one above (better ones, hopefully) that will provoke fruitful debate.

9

Try rephrasing your OP in a new post, explaining better what it is you are looking for – I confess that I’m totally missing your point, and I thought I’d read you OP thoroughly to avoid the traditional hijacks and flamefests associated with the issue.

10

I might be completely missing the point of the OP as well, but I’ve never understood why homosexuality is a sin, except that God says so. Most of the other sins, there’s a reason God is ag’in it. Murder, theft, adultery, all of those have concrete, non-theological reasons to be considered “evil” acts. They hurt other people. It’s patently obvious why God would forbid them. Even idolatry makes sense, in a “credit where credit is due” sort of way. God went to the trouble of creating this whole universe for us, the least we could do is make sure we thank him for his efforts.

When it comes to homosexuality, though, all you ever hear* is, “The Bible says it’s a sin.” Why? “Because the Bible says so.” So, if anyone has an answer, I’m interested to hear why homosexuality is a sin. What’s the basis for God’s animus against the gay luvin’?

Unless I’ve also missed Mangetout’s point, in which case just ignore me.

11

OK; I (a moderate/ Christian who can find within myself no rational or reasonable objection to homosexuality) am anticipating that I will soon be involved in a weighty debate on the subject.

In order to avoid distraction, weaselling, bifurcation, repetition and the general sort of etc that so often hampers productive debate on such a broad and emotive topic, I wish to formulate a list of questions/proposals/statements that will serve as talking points/challenges - they need to cut right to the very heart of the issue; I want the debate to address the root issues that make it so hard to find agreement, rather than addressing some socio-political specific that is a remote descendant of several roots.

Please could anyone suggest some questions/proposals that will stand a chance of provoking focussed, productive debate on the topic of religion/Christianity/human sexualkty.

12

I probably should add (since another re-read admits the possibility of misunderstanding); I’m not looking for anyone to script my arguments, I just want to formulate a list of useful discussion-starters.

13

Well, how about this:

What, exactly are the dire social consequences arising from increased tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality and/or same sex marriage?

Or, from a religious perspective,

Why is, or why should, homosexuality (be) a sin. Hopefully answers will be a little more detailed than “because the Bible says so.”

14

Your Question posed in your OP (“What exactly is it about homosexuality that makes some people think it is wrong?”) seems to have very little to do with the title of this thread (" The Bible vs homosexuality, but this thred is going to be different".)

Many dudes have problems with homosexuality for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible or religion in any-way-shape-or-form.

And “the Bible vs Homosexuality” is a thread topic that has been opened here (I think) about once a month going back for years :rolleyes: - thus i guarantee you that this thread will not open any new issues on that exact topic. (Reeder more or less summarized it, in fact).

So- we (or at least I) have no idea of what you want. I suggest you ask a Mod to close this, think about it for a while, and come back with a Thread Title and an OP that are more coherent. Sorry.

15

I understand perfectly what you’re doing. I’m sure you think you want a polite, wide ranging debate, but you really are kidding yourself in a sort of well meaning fashion. Your (real) eventual goal is to bring them around to your way of right thinking if at all possible, and you want some rhetorical structure that predisposes the discussion to eventually turn your way.

With that in mind, the goal really should be how to best frame the debate to wind up at the point you think appropriate. The problem is that lots of otherwise polite and reasonable people (and a surprising number of women) are deep seated crypto queeraphobes, and there is absolutley nothing you can do to make them change their minds.

Good luck though.

16

I’m not asking a question in the OP - the bolded sentence is an example of the kind of questions I want people to contribute.

I don’t know how I can say it any clearer; I want a list of questions/proposals that a group of christians can use as discussion/debate points; the questions/proposals need ideally to be formulated so as to cut right to the roots of people’s thinking (on both sides).

17

I think that’s probably more than a little unfair - this is neither my MO in debates generally, neither is it my specific intention in this case - I don’t want to subvert anyone’s view, but rather scrape away the endless bullshit, rhetoric, distraction and posturing that so often hampers debate on this topic; I want to expose the *actual point of divergence of view, so that we can actually debate the topic, rather than merely tapdancing around each other, misunderstanding each other as we go.

18

If a man can love a woman, why can’t he love a man? How is it any different?

19

Did you see my post #13, Mangetout? Is that the sort of thing you’re looking for?

20

YES! And a good one at that.