Relationship Double-Standard Expections (Longish)

In My Humble Opinion
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…after you’ve both screwed up.
[This is the surely the very definition of TLDR. If you feel that way, I hope you’ll be kind enough to be kind with whatever attentions you give my humble, wordy post. You’ve been warned, as usual. :D]
I hope I can explain this. Below will be one example from my limited life. I’ll throw up another if this ends up more disjointed than I intend and nobody knows what the hell I’m talking about. Bear with me.

  1. My mother (henceforth to be known as Shitler), who I've repeatedly explained on here is an abusive maniacal monster (she's the one who has said, among other things, that my mental problems are a result of demonic possession), and my aunt (we'll call her Duped for the purpose of this thread)    are close.  That means whenever Shitler has some overblown 'problem' with her, Duped is expected to fix it.  NOW.  Always.  ALWAYSALWAYSALWAYS.

In return, if there’s a legitimate gripe from Duped about, say, not disowning another sister because her grief hasn’t subsided from the death of her husband yet… well, you can imagine. Shitler isn’t wrong and fights to death to make everyone involved’s life miserable until they cry uncle and relent. That she’s perfect and was correct in her original analysis of the situation (that Duped is an idiot / too sensitive / blind to manipulation / whatever) and of course, her choice of action was the only right way to handle things.

At this point, life goes back to normal until Duped pisses her off again. Which usually means there’s a couple of days reprieve until Shitler refuses to a) be a doormat anymore while everyone tries to walk all over her; b) keep working so hard at life ( ?) while no one else cares or does anything at all; and / or c) ever feel anything at all about __________ again. No way, no how. She just will. not. be. taken. advantage. of. Or used. Or something. < shrug > Maintaining that as a real possibility would be in the same category as classifying Lindsay Lohan a vestal virgin. Just not a chance in years and years.

So my question to the TMs is what y'all think of this.  I'm sure everyone'll agree it's reprehensible and that their adults (early 60s), so butt out.  But I'd like a little more in-depth analysis, if you're so inclined.  What would you suggest to change it (theoretically speaking)?  How would you deal with it if that's not an option?  And as a disclaimer again, this is just an enjoyable exercise in futility for me because I don't like her more than usual tonight, so please understand that I'm not planning on rushing in there to fix it.  Maybe simply getting it down and hearing outside opinions will remind me that my stance on Shitler (eh, our 'relationship' is a useless sham) is the only way to go.  So there.  

Any further information needed, please yell.  If'n that's it, I'll go ahead and thank you in advance.
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As a fellow child of an abusive maniacal monster myself, I encourage you to let go of any hope of having a normal parent who does things logically, understands reason, and treats you (or Duped, for that matter) with respect and love. She is who she is, and none of our opinions will change that.

I truly believe that you can’t change who people are according to your own wishes. You have to either accept them for who they are, or let them go. I had to let my dad go 12 years ago, and life is good without that stress and tension and hurt constantly floating around. I let him go, got therapy re the childhood, and I moved on. Maybe you should, too? I realize that I didn’t really answer your question, but that’s the best answer I have for you.

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Alice, I agree with everything you’ve said. And actually, the OH (Other Half of me) says that I’m diametrically opposite of how I used to be in dealing with her. That’s it’s surprising how little of a shit I give. However, that said, there’s still an occasional blue moon when she gets to me… more for her treatment of others than anything else. I wouldn’t trust her as far as I could throw her and I doubt I’d even be able to pick her up. Ya know? But it seems that (mostly) letting everything go where she’s concerned doesn’t do jack when it hurts someone else I love an extreme amount.

No matter if they’re involved with her willingly (as is the case with Duped, in that they live together), I still want to shake Shitler until her freakin’ teeth rattle out and get stomped on by a diseased caribou. So I think I just need to hear from others and re-affirm that the previous paths I’ve taken (like therapy) concerning this have at least been in the right direction. And I’m only now feeling head-bangingly impotent because I’m tired / pissed / alone.

I hope that makes any sense.

Thank you for your help. I’m sorry that you know intimately of that which I speak, but I’m glad you’ve put some great advice out there. Not just to remind me, but to possibly assist others. In other words, a *great * answer.

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Saturday before last, as we were in the middle of rearranging her book collection to make the kiddie books easily accesible for The Nephew, Mom got a call from The Grandmother From Hell. Long story short, we ended up going to Barcelona in a rush for something that ended up being quite nothing, but as we were walking from the car to my grandparents’ flat, Mom complained that my cousin who lives close to them “doesn’t change her schedule or raise a finger unless they call her from the ER and a doctor or nurse gets on the phone.”

I told her “well, how else do you think she’d be able to survive Them? It’s not like they’ll ever become rational, they’ve never been rational and it’s not in their 90s when they will suddenly discover they’re not the navel(s) of the universe.”

The only way to deal with folks like those is to develp a callus as thick as you are. Like my cousin, I’ve learned to look at my grandparents more or less like one looks at Discovery Channel documentaries: it may be interesting, horrid, sometimes fun, but it’s got little to do with me. But yeah, the few times they get to me it’s more for the way they treat others then myself.

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faithfool, I really, REALLY hate those psychiatric/psychological diagnostic thingies, but if I were you, I’d read up on Borderline Personality Disorders.

Just sayin’. :slight_smile:

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I think they have to work out their own problems; you should stay out of it. Easier said than done, I know.

I have many issues with my own mother, though not as severe as yours. I figure that we don’t choose our parents and there are times when you have to walk away. If she’s poison to you, that’s what you need to do…it’s just self-preservation and everybody has a right to that.

The conditioning theory behind what she does is easy: she throws a tantrum and gets what she wants, and that encourages her to throw another. With time, she realizes that the tantrum can accomplish anything.

Extinguishing the behavior: don’t respond to it at all. Don’t do or say anything…I think some would amend that to "Don’t say or do anything that reinforces/rewards the behavior. But it’s not always easy to determine specifically what payoffs she gets, so zero response covers it.

As for duped, she needs to see the light. If the two of you ignored Shitler, it would be more powerful. But if duped doesn’t want to go there, that’s her prerogative. IMO when she’s suffered enough she’ll re-evaluate, but don’t hold your breath.

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I agree with the previous posts. After having a momster (although I’m really liking that Shitler term!) myself, I saw some things that would have changed me and most people I know if they had gone through the experiences except for the momster…She just came out of each experience unchanged, miserable, and deluded as ever.
It reminds me of when I attended some AA meeting for family members (the name escapes me) where the basic mantra was “You cannot change the person. Only they can decide when they are ready to change.” And sometimes, they never do. You just have to learn to accept that, as much as it sucks.

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Sounds to me like Duped is a bit codependent, in this situation. She’s the one who has to make the relationship change, if she wants change. Since Shitler obviously isn’t going to start playing nice, Duped would have to change the way she responds to Shitler in order to bring about improvement. And as you have experienced, sometimes there is only a tiny chance of effecting such change.

Here’s another weird aspect - sometimes people are so comfortable in their co-dependent role, they don’t WANT change. But you probably already knew that.

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Nava: Oh I hear ya. My mother has, on more than one occasion, demanded that something be done RIGHT THIS VERY INSTANCE. Because it’s of the utmost importance, ya see. So, everyone will rush from the 4 corners of the earth (couple hours’ drive, no problem!) to prevent Shitlergeddon. Then only afterwards do we find out that she didn’t follow up from her end and whatever it was goes unattended for years.

In reverse, she can’t be arsed to stop across the street for 5 minutes because someone’s got pneumonia and all she’s doing is running around picking up snacks and videos. Ugh.

kambuckta: No problems with that diagnosis at all. Hell, I’d go plenty of steps beyond that and say that’s she’s not only crazier than a shit house rat, but a sociopath as well. So, I don’t think BPD is out of the question, although I think she’d probably lean closer to schizophrenic. And proudly too!

lobotomyboy63: Agreed. I remember when I first learned that my trying to help (by standing up for Duped or my dad or whoever) only made things worse for them, I was devastated. Not only that, but they didn’t want any assistance for that very reason. I’ve never really thought I needed someone else to ‘get my back’ per se, however since it hadn’t been done though, I stupidly plunged ahead. It’s only been in about the last half dozen years that I understand the damage it caused by not butting out. I don’t involve myself now unless I’m specifically solicited for advice and only then do I just state my opinion and walk away. It’s not worth it.

I’ve said this many times here on the boards, but I don’t have the balls (literally or figuratively) to completely divorce myself from her. Most is my own fault, because I allow the every-once-in-a-while fairy tale to hold sway rather than face cold hard reality. I mean, if all of a sudden she turns into fucking Mrs. Cleaver for an extended period of time, it’s easier (I know) to give in and ‘believe’ than to constantly be the bad guy for not giving her another chance. Which I immediately regret when the mask quickly slips and Shitler returns in full force. Regardless, there is another reason; my father. He’s beginning to show signs of Alzheimer’s and unfortunately, there’s zilch opportunity to maintain my relationship with him without fighting the dragon that guards the mote. Eh, if only he could be spirited away in the night…

As far as keeping quiet, I used to not even know that was an option. How dense can an adult closing in on their 40s be? Well, until she almost cut off all ties with me, I didn’t grasp that I had the same option too. Before, I thought it was respectful and proper and simply the right thing to do to hash things out how she saw fit. Got the cold shoulder? I deserved it. Had to wage war for three days over not refilling the toilet paper supply? Deserved that too and just had to buck up and deal. Whatever, I was supposed to do what she expected of me.

Then one day came the dawn and I realized she’d be pissed either way. So I took the first opportunity to put this to the test… I bravely said during one disparaging phone conversation that I wasn’t going to discuss that with her anymore (gasp!) and was amazed to find that nothing happened any different than before. She had the ability to regroup and just pick up where she left off. Therefore, if she wanted to continue with her poor opinion of me, she did. I got to look at everything like it didn’t matter and eventually, that became true. Of her judgments, tantrums, the whole nine yards. Og it’s been liberating!

Finally, Duped ‘needs’ to remain with her for a billion bad reasons. Without my mother, she undoubtedly feels she isn’t worthy of existence. Being too close to the sun will probably do that to you. :rolleyes:

nikonikosuru: When I was much younger, I thought the problem with her momsterness (love that term! – if you’ll share that, I promise you can use Shitler anytime ya like) was because of me. Ya see, she didn’t honestly know what I wanted. Like if all I asked for was a certain ball glove for Xmas, I instead got that training bra because I didn’t tell her the right manufacture. When my birthday rolled around and I tried again, Houston had a failure because then she must not’ve known how much I wanted it. After that it was a constant cycle… I told her I wanted it a lot, but not that it was an earth-shattering necessity. Okay, I guess I got across that’s how I felt, but by then I was too old or it cost too much or procuring it would be a huge hassle. Yadda yadda yadda.

Fast forward from age 9 to 30 and I finally ‘get’ that it wasn’t about not doing whatever the correct way. She enjoyed the hoops and the drama. No way would she ever change that for something as fleeting as inconsequential happiness. I learned to (mostly) accept that and to find accommodations that make me okay with her psycho personality. Now I don’t ask for jack shit. De-expectations make for more palatable, and brief, necessary interactions. It’s just when she’s done something spectacularly momsterish (and I’ve had a bit to drink) that I rave. :cool:

NinetyWt: Duped is more than just codependent. She’s a hollow hologram of Shitler. And as hard as it is to digest, I know that ultimately, she doesn’t want to go anywhere. Being miserable is better than having wasted so much of her life and time, or living alone, that this momstrosity (heh) is what she twistedly desires. That sort of knowledge is what used to kill me so because she’s more to be pitied than anything, but leaving someone to their own harmful devices is a difficult pill to swallow. Especially when you love them so much.

Further, that’s my dad in a nutshell, but even worse. He believes the spin. Because his life was so sad before, mom must love him and treat him well, despite all evidence to the contrary. She truly has him convinced that he can’t think for himself or function without her micro-managing whatever benefits her ('cause the rest isn’t important, yanno). He’s incapable of life, according to her.
Anyway, I think I’ve blathered on incoherently enough. Thanks everyone so much for your kindness and help. I appreciate all the time you’ve taken and the care of your replies. Now I’m off to get some lunch. I’m positive that Mexican food always helps my Shitler issues.

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And Paranoid Personality Disorder cite 2 while she’s at it. As family members they’re hard to deal with since loved ones are the closest handy targets for their mistrust.