So, springears, you’re saying that what their doing is numerology despite their attempts to hide it behind a veil of scientific sounding methodology and math. Is that about right?
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck…
…then, it doesn’t echo! 
Actually, on the television series “Mythbusters” they proved that a duck’s quack, really does echo.
The problem with calling it straight out numerology is that they have managed to blur the line between mathematics and numerology. On Wikipedia article for mathematics it states that math is not numerology because numerology entails the arbitary assignment of emotions or traits to numbers and math is concerned with proving or disproving ideas in a logical manner. If this is the case, then it can be argued that since the Bible says the number of the Beast is 666, it isn’t arbitary anymore, but doesn’t exactly qualify as mathematics either because using the Bible to justify something doesn’t make it logical since in fails Occum’s Razor due to the fact that it makes the extraordinary assumptions that (1) The bible was divinely inspired and (2) that the Book of Revelation was meant as a prediction for the future as opposed to other interpretations. Since the assumptions are so extraordinary, they would in turn require extraordinary evidence. From this, I can imagine a host of rebuttals such as, “God doesn’t need to prove evidence, it’s all based on faith,” or, “The code itself is extraordinary evidence.” However, the former is a unfalsifiable claim and the latter is isn’t all that amazing when considering that many ciphers or codes, will make a whole host of “evil” words equal a number X and at the same time make several “good” words equal the same number Y. It is just that the one they found gives them what they want to see.
So, what has the demarcation line between mathematics and numerology become? Does the simple act of having a computer attach numerical values each letter of the English alphabet constitute numerology or does the act of using the Bible jusitfy the use of 666 in the calculations mean that this has entered the field of mathematics?
Numerology has a long tradition in Judaism. Each Hebrew letter has a number value, and bored Jews have been coming up with fascinating combinations and equations for centuries. Some of it is even still followed today (cash gifts and donations are given in multiples of 16, the numeric value of ‘life.’) in the form of superstition or tradition.
It’s a fun mental exercise for those with a head for it, but I don’t think it gives any extra weight to the Torah. You either believe or you don’t. There’s no need for ‘extra’ proof.
Ahhh, but if there’s a hidden message, one that will tell you, say, that Larry King is the Anti-Christ, and when the fat celebrity gives him the Kiss of Death, Richard Nixon’s gravestone will grow a lichen that clearly spells out “666” in Aramaic, Jaun Benito Guzman’s front-yard Virgin-on-a-half-shell will weep tears of blood, the Riders of the Apocalypse will gate-crash the Kentuky Derby, while the Two Towers of New Jericho will fall on Elijah, who is disguised as a hobo, well, wouldn’t you want to know?
AR25, I’m not quite sure where you want to go with this. You do understand that mathematics is a part of numerology, right? Perhaps in the same sense that chemistry is part of alchemy. There is some crossover, but one is a true science and one is bogus.
The Bible Code theory says, basically: Letters from the Bible, when extracted in specific mathematical sequences and recombined, sometimes form other words. That part is not in dispute. But these other words, when “interpreted” in light of past events, have meaning ascribed to them by the interpreters. And these meanings are sometimes taken as profound, shocking or as evidence of the supernatural by the interpreters.
In syllogistic form: If hidden, profound meanings can be found in a work, that work is of sacred origin. Hidden, profound meanings have been found in the Bible (it took a computer to make it easy), therefore the Bible is of sacred origin.
Others have questioned the premise by pointing out that similar, hidden, profound meanings have been found in War and Peace and other weighty tomes. If you look hard enough, and use a language like Hebrew that is ideal for interpreting sequences of letters in different ways (vowels are absent), you are bound to find many hidden meanings in almost any text of sufficient size.
So either War and Peace is also divinely inspired or the premise is wrong.
I seem to recall a web site that allowed you to search for hidden words in large texts yourself; sorry, don’t have the link handy.
Some additional thoughts – reading Nostradamas’ works requires “interpretation”, too. But no two interpreters agree on what each obscure passage means. And if you want another test, try to predict a specific, FUTURE event from these hidden codes, not just try to match an obscure text to a PAST event. Hindsight works, foresight doesn’t, and this suggests it is the human mind that is providing the match. We are operating in territory already occupied by astrology, ouija boards, tea leaves and palm reading. If you understand how those seem to “work,” then you should understand how the Bible Codes seem to “work,” too.
Is this numerology? Perhaps not, strictly speaking. But the idea that there is hidden meaning of more import that the obvious meanings is common to both disciplines.
Musicat, with all due respect, I do not view chemistry as a part of alchemy, nor do I feel that mathematics is a part of numerology. However, I do think that alchemy is precursor to modern day chemistry but without the benefit of the scientific method and therefore making it a pseudoscience and that mathematics grew out of numerology in an analogous fashion.
The only thing that separates chemistry the physical science from the pseudoscience of alchemy is the scientific method. So, if the scientific method is seen by many as one way to distinguish between science and pseudoscience, what is the thing that can be used to determine what is math as we know it today and numerology which is a pseudoscience? Basically, I’m trying to find a litmus test if you will, that will separate mathematics as a practical science and numerology as a pseudoscience despite human attempts to blur the line between the two.
I only ask because the Alphabet code that this entire debate started with purports to not be numerology but instead mathematics (while its not a science becaue it fails to follow the scientific method, it doesn’t necessary follow that its not math) because they had a computer program find the gematria and that they say that 666 wasn’t randomly chosen because the it was in the Bible. It just seems to me that they tried to remove human aspect as much as possible in order to blur the line between real science and fake science.
Let’s try a different angle.
Mathematics: 2 + 2 = 4.
Numerology: Four has a mystical power that can crush, heal or foretell the future.
Mathematics: Take the Nth letter, the 2Nth letter, the 3Nth letter from a text and it spells ZOX.
Mysticism: ZOX means the Messiah is coming next St. Swindle’s Day to save all mankind from the evils of rap music.
The 666 WAS DELIBERATELY chosen, by human beings, as having a mystical significance. Did they trumpet the finding of 3? 86? 444? No, because the human element ascribed a mystical meaning to 666, not 444. They looked for it (using mathematics and computers), they found it, then they claimed it had meaning above and beyond the obvious. The interpretation is not mathematics, and not science. Not much different from reading the entrails of pigs to forecast the next election.
I may agree with you about alchemy/chemistry, but not about numerology as a precursor to modern mathematics. Nevertheless, there is a relationship between the pairs, no?
Before I get down to fully continuing this debate this debate in full, I would like to thank your welcoming me to the Straight Dope Forum under my Ralph Nader question. I’m considering staying, however I’m a month too young to have a credit card to pay for the subscription, so if I don’t get one by September I’ll be back under as a charter member sometime later.
Actually, they do make a big deal about 444 (as well as 888, 660, and 906) results because they found that a whole bunch of words including Jesus among other “good” words that equal 444. Apparently the same cipher that yielded those 666 values also made the 444 values. Needless to say, they decided that 444, 888, and 906 is somehow important because of the number of “good” words that have the value. However, the assignment of special meaning to those values seems arbitrary and for no other reason than to support their alphabet code.
So, basically you don’t see this code they have as anymore than divination, mysticism, and numerology despite them trying to hide it behind technology.
Also, I do agree with you that there is a relationship between pairs and after some reading I will concede that mathematics isn’t an outgrowth of numerology.
Exactly. You summed that up very well, my friend.
FYI: You might want to take a look at the law of large numbers as well. Given two large sets of numbers (or data), the possibility of finding similarities between them purely by chance is considerably more than most people realize. And when the similiarities can be defined afterwards, the possibilities are huge. Nothing but pure chance operating here.
Since you seem interested in numbers, when you get that shiny new credit card, test it out by buying some of Martin Gardner’s books. He used to be the Mathematics Column editor for Scientific American and writes on a large number of topics. Just remember that whenever he writes about the character, “Dr. Irving Joshua Matrix,” he is writing tongue in cheek about a mythical character who uses scientific-sounding language in his occupation as swindler. In fact, it might be a good exercise to learn to differentiate between the truly scientific and the spoofly scientific.
Dr. Matrix even has a foreign-born assistant, tonsorially challenged, called One-Tooth Rhee. (Say it fast.) An ideal assistant for a numerologist.
Hell, you don’t even have to do the work of “trying hard enough” yourself – this site will do it for you.