Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors

This is inspired by one of the many sidetracks in DemonTree’s recent trainwreck of an ATMB thread. Some people attempted, for various purposes, to draw analogies between religious belief and gender identity, which I felt often fell into category errors, confusing matters of belief and identity.

Some argued that denying a trans person’s self-identification was no different than describing someone’s religious beliefs as being “delusional”, and questioned why the board treats these cases so differently. I offer some simple examples to explain the difference.

BAD RELIGION: “My religious beliefs are objectively correct, and I therefore have the right and obligation to coerce others into acting in accordance with my beliefs.” This, of course, is precisely the position of most transphobes (though the ones around here prefer to appeal to psuedoscientific rather than religious authority).

In this case, it is clearly not hateful to point out that their arguments in favor of their religion’s truth are objectively trash, built entirely on flawed logic and factually incorrect assertions. If, however, one were to go on to say that your opponent doesn’t actually believe their own arguments, and everyone making those arguments is doing so for some sinister ulterior motive, that would be jerkish.

GOOD RELIGION: “I find it spiritually uplifting to pray and study religious texts, and I feel that these make me a better person. Further, I have faith in the truth of my tradition, though I realize there is no evidence for that truth that would convince a skeptic”.

Describing this person’s internal sense of spiritual uplift, or their belief in things unsupported by evidence, as a “delusion” would be extremely jerkish, and only reveals that the speaker doesn’t understand what “delusion” means. Those sorts of attacks on a person’s description of their own internal state are more analogous to transphobic hate speech, and serve no useful purpose in any civilized discussion.

This is true, and that’s why a lot of people who don’t believe “transwomen are women/ transmen are men” don’t say this.

Instead we say:

A person’s inner mental state is their own business. It doesn’t have anything to do with whether they’re a man or a woman. “Man”, in the English language means a person with a male body.

I can and do say that I think people’s comparison of their own inner mental state to others’ mental states is incorrect. That’s because nobody can experience someone else’s inner mental state, but everyone can observe behaviour. “I think Person A is behaving more like Person B than Person C, therefore I think Person A is wrong to think that Person C has the same sort of internal feelings as them” is a reasonable inference to make

The fact that a person’s internal experience of “genderhood” can’t be verified by anyone else one way or another is the exact reason why it is a bad basis for a socially important categorization scheme.

This assumes the existence of a language pope, to whose infallible doctrines all must give a a religious submission of intellect and will. But there is no such pope.

The meaning of words, like the concept of gender, is socially constructed. You or I might choose to privilege purely material factors in the way in which we use the words “man” and “woman”, but it’s undeniable that others make a different choice. And I don’t see that either choice can claim an objective validity that the other lacks. Proceeding on the basis that it does is precisely the “Bad Religion” fallacy that Thing.Fish identifies.

Except that religion is also a part of a person’s identity. And I would venture to say that, in most cases, religion is a lot more about identity than it is about belief.

What? Of course it can be verified. It’s really, really easy. Given that there is one and only one person who has an internal experience of any given person’s “internal genderhood”, the way you verify a person’s internal genderhood is that you ask that person. Would that all questions were so easily answered, with one and only one definitive authority.

Two problems.

  1. Lying is a thing people can do
  2. Nobody knows what another person’s internal genderhood actually feels like, so two people could say they have identical genderhoods and mean something completely different

I’d say your OP is well-poisoning, but it’s barely coherent enough to qualify as such.

In any case, Babale identified a much sharper version of the point I was making. Some people (religious, mostly) believe they have an immortal soul distinct from their material body. I say that’s nonsense and that they’re an ephemeral fluctuation in a physical field somewhere.

It’s hard to imagine something that strikes closer to the heart of identity, of what a person truly is at their core, than dualism vs. materialism. And yet there’s no problem with me saying dualists are full of it. It’s not hateful. At worst it’s a little rude.

Nobody owes anyone acknowledgement of their inner identity, whatever it might be. Especially since it’s wholly unprovable. Board rules are what they are to foster healthy discussion, but there’s no greater philosophical debate to be had in that respect.

Everyone gets to decide for themselves what is core to their own identity. I can respect that your materialism (or dualism or whatever) is core to your identity. And I can believe you when you say you it’s hard to imagine otherwise. Nevertheless, others may not consider it core to themselves at all.

So what? The point is that for some people, it does. And I still get to say they’re totally deluded and it isn’t hate speech.

So you don’t get to decide what’s a core identity for other people.

Of course I don’t. But I still get to say that their identity is fraudulent.

It’s honestly bizarre to me to imply that me saying something about another is the same as me deciding something. On any topic, whatsoever.

No, no you don’t. period.

But the OP black/white portrait is simplistic, so let make it even simpler.

“I believe in God”

If you say that person’s belief is fraudulent, or delusional, then IMHO, that is the very definition of being a jerk.

Now, you can say you disagree, that there is no rational reason (Pascals Wager?) for such a belief but mocking them is wrong.

So let us say there is a person who was born with XY chromosomes. That person has taken no medical steps or such, they simply state- sincerely- “I believe I am a woman”. (I say “Okay by me”. )

Would is be okay to call them delusional? or a fraud? No. That would be a jerk move also.

Of course it’s being a jerk. Being a jerk isn’t hate speech. It doesn’t even mean the speaker is wrong. If I go on and on about a disabled person’s limitations, that’s me being a jerk, even if I’m objectively correct about everything I say. I have the right to say these things, and others have the right to say I’m being a jerk.

If gender were simply defined by what our “internal genderhood” was, we wouldn’t be having these kinds of conversations, but since gender is a social construct defined by cultural norms and understanding, here we are. If gender identity was just a matter of internal processes, it wouldn’t matter to trans or cis people what pronouns anyone preferred to use. And just so everyone is clear, I’m not arguing we should tell trans or non-binary individuals what gender they are, only that as a social construct it’s a shared experience not simply an individual one.

Yeah, it really is. It’s calling them crazy, their minds defective and inferior to your own, their beliefs false, and their experience unreal (implying that they’re either lying or too stupid to get something right). Hateful in the sense of being an insulting, ugly, dismissive thing to call a person, meant to make them shut up and feel like shit, even though the SDMB allows the behavior and frequently encourages it.

My position is that essentially everyone (including myself) is delusional about a whole host of ideas and that our inner experience about pretty much everything is a total fabrication. If that’s hate, then it’s equally distributed.

Any meaningful discussion about beliefs must at some level contain a claim that the other person is wrong, whether the claim is explicit or not. There is no “agree to disagree” with materialism vs. dualism. If I claim that materialism is correct then I must also believe the other person is wrong about dualism. People may be too polite to say so but they’re logically irreconcilable claims. Same goes for pretty much any other claim.

Delusional isn’t synonymous with either of those things. On the contrary–it requires the person to have genuine belief in that thing. Nothing to do with stupidity, either. Much smarter people than you or I have believed in utterly fantastic things.

This you deciding what is a core identity of another:

You’re not saying what their core identity is, you’re deciding that your categories (dualism, materialism) must be used as core identities. But just because you think the choice of dualism vs materialism is a core part of a person’s identity doesn’t mean other people do. Even if they’ve made the same choice as you.

Sure. That’s why, for instance, a reasonable Catholic will feel personally offended by “All Catholics are brainwashed misogynist zombies!” but not by “I find the doctrine of the Trinity logically unconvincing”.

It’s even more offensive if they claim that all Catholics are actively involved in child sex trafficking, and when you personally deny such involvement, say that you can’t be trusted because “Lying is a thing that people do”.

That’s just your perspective as a materialist; your correct opinion on one side, and all the various incorrect opinions lumped together on the other. But nobody actually identifies as a “dualist”, they identify as followers of particular dualistic theologies.

To a fundamentalist Christian, it’s whether someone has accepted Jesus which determines what they truly are at their core; the distinction between Muslims, Buddhists, and atheists is insignificant.

Depends on what you mean by “socially important categorization scheme.” Self-identification as Christian, Republican, Democratic, Jewish, or Bengals fan is entirely an internal experience that can’t be verified by anyone else, but these are also, in a sense, “socially important categorization schemes.” Those who identify as Republicans are the only ones, in many states, allowed to vote in Republican primaries. There are churches that don’t allow you to take communion if you don’t identify as a Christian. There are bars where if you’re not a Bengals fan, you’re not welcome.

There are a shit-ton of internal experiences people have that can’t be verified from the outside, and we believe people. If someone tells me they have a headache, I don’t tell them they’re delusional, or insist that they can’t take the actions that someone with a headache might take (lie down, take an aspirin) until they can prove it. I don’t tell them that Republican is defined a certain way (“Only people who have run for office as Republicans are Republicans, so you can’t vote in the next primary!”)

Some religious claims are internal experiences. “I feel a deep sense of peace and joy when I pray,” or, “I’m a Buddhist” are claims about internal experience and identification, and it would be truly obnoxious to dispute someone’s claims (absent extreme circumstances where it was clear someone was deliberately lying).

But most religious claims aren’t about internal experiences, but are claims about the universe. “God is everywhere, God is good, Jesus died for your sins and rose again, an altar to Lakshmi will bring you wealth, God created the earth in seven days, God only made two sexes and you were born with the one you are”–these are all claims about the universe. If God is everywhere, that’s not just true for you, that’s true for me, too. And if I disagree, I’m not attacking you or being obnoxious, I’m just expressing a different view about the world.

So: absent an extreme reason to believe you’re lying about your internal state, I’m going to accept you at your word; and absent a strong reason not to treat you according to your claims about that state, I’ll treat you accordingly.

That’s fundamentally different from your claims about the world external to you.

I would agree with this. I don’t think it is moral to question how someone feels about their gender, absent clear evidence of their lying. But the question then becomes should you treat a trans gender person the same as a biological female, i.e. should you treat a biological male self identifying as a woman the same as a biological female? And the answer there is sometimes yes and maybe sometime no, depending on the context and depending on the issue at hand.