Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors

[DemonTree]

@Der_Trihs

The goal is persecution, so it make perfect logical sense.

It doesn’t make sense because it’s in the UK, under a Labour government, not the US under Trump.

@Gyrate

We can thank JK Rowling for astroturfing that campaign and priming the political pumps behind it.

Nah. She donated to the campaign, but she didn’t start the group behind it. There are a bunch of true believers who organise on social media and think this is the most important issue facing women. Incomprehensible, but they are clearly serious about their beliefs.

@Gyrate

The irony is that this approach damages women far more in the long run than all the groups they purport to be afraid of, but then it’s not like it was ever about the welfare of women in the first place.

In terms of damage to women, it’s no different to the idea women should be afraid of men in general, and that’s mainstream feminism and socially approved.

[Gyrate]

@DemonTree

It doesn’t make sense because it’s in the UK, under a Labour government, not the US under Trump.

So? Starmer’s government is about as leftist as the Tories were under Cameron, and moving rightward.

@DemonTree

Nah. She donated to the campaign, but she didn’t start the group behind it. There are a bunch of true believers who organise on social media and think this is the most important issue facing women. Incomprehensible, but they are clearly serious about their beliefs.

She certainly thinks she’s the driving force behind it, based on her reaction to it. But yes, true believers who promote toxic views on social media are difficult to comprehend sometimes.

@DemonTree

In terms of damage to women, it’s no different to the idea women should be afraid of men in general, and that’s mainstream feminism and socially approved.

Well, apart from the fact that the “socially approved mainstream feminism” version is evidence-based and is about empowering women, and the anti-trans (and anti- other groups) one is baseless fearmongering designed to disempower women.

[Der_Trihs]

@DemonTree

It doesn’t make sense because it’s in the UK, under a Labour government, not the US under Trump.

It doesn’t matter, bigotry is bigotry no matter where it is or who is in charge. The only reason it “doesn’t make sense” is because you are trying to frame it as a matter of law, instead of just bigoted hate.

[DemonTree]

@Gyrate

Well, apart from the fact that the “socially approved mainstream feminism” version is evidence-based and is about empowering women, and the anti-trans (and anti- other groups) one is baseless fearmongering designed to disempower women.

They arise from the same set of beliefs, and have equivalent effects on women. But that’s not what this thread is about. If you want to defend basing fear of different groups on whether they are more intersectionally disadvantaged than you, you can start another one.

[Gyrate]

@DemonTree

They arise from the same set of beliefs, and have equivalent effects on women.

They don’t, although the “true believers” you decry are also fond of making such claims.

@DemonTree

If you want to defend basing fear of different groups on whether they are more intersectionally disadvantaged than you, you can start another one.

That is a gross mischaracterization of what I said and of reality. But sure, we can take that to a different thread if you like.

[Ms2001]

@DemonTree

It doesn’t make sense because it’s in the UK, under a Labour government, not the US under Trump.

They don’t call it “TERF Island” for nothing.

[iiandyiiii]

@DemonTree

@Gyrate

Well, apart from the fact that the “socially approved mainstream feminism” version is evidence-based and is about empowering women, and the anti-trans (and anti- other groups) one is baseless fearmongering designed to disempower women.

They arise from the same set of beliefs, and have equivalent effects on women. But that’s not what this thread is about. If you want to defend basing fear of different groups on whether they are more intersectionally disadvantaged than you, you can start another one.

Bigots will always have a special case to justify why this time, their bigotry is reasonable. Sure, all the other bigotries have been bad, but this time it’s different. This time Those People, and those insisting that they be treated with dignity and decency, really are dangerous. This time, it’s not even bigotry!

[DemonTree]

@iiandyiiii

Bigots will always have a special case to justify why this time, their bigotry is reasonable. Sure, all the other bigotries have been bad, but this time it’s different.

T*rfs agree with all the leftist theories of intersectionality etc; they just believe you’ve got some of the groups in the wrong order in the pyramid of oppression and are acting accordingly.

My opinion is that there’s nothing special about trans people; the whole framework is flawed and leads to bad norms and bad policy, in multiple areas.

Not that it’s unique in that respect, since these recent changes in the UK are very bad policy, and Trump’s EOs are worse.

[iiandyiiii]

@DemonTree

T*rfs agree with all the leftist theories of intersectionality etc; they just believe you’ve got some of the groups in the wrong order in the pyramid of oppression and are acting accordingly.

This sounds like made up bullshit based on MAGA fantasies of how progressives and liberals think.

[puzzlegal]

You know that liberals don’t spend a lot of time “ordering the pyramid of oppression”, right? The core idea is that everyone has certain privileges and lacks others. And that it’s helpful to be mindful of that.

[Babale]

@puzzlegal

You know that liberals don’t spend a lot of time “ordering the pyramid of oppression”, right?

You’re absolutely right! Liberals don’t do that.

Progressives, on the other hand…

[Gyrate]

@DemonTree

My opinion is that there’s nothing special about trans people

Then why do you spend so much time talking about them?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Babale

You’re absolutely right! Liberals don’t do that.

Progressives, on the other hand…

I have been part of many, many trainings on DEI, on intersectionality, on systemic racism. I’ve taken college courses from avowed Marxists, including one called Political Economy and Social Change: Race, Class, and Gender in the United States. I’ve read scads of books on the topic, from Gloria Steinem to (parts of) Andrea Dworkin to Ibrim X. Kendi.

I’ve never encountered any sort of “ordering the pyramid of oppression.”

This is a bullshit claim.

[DavidNRockies]

@DemonTree

My opinion is that there’s nothing special about trans people; the whole framework is flawed and leads to bad norms and bad policy, in multiple areas.

This is what the struggle for equal rights under the law has always looked like in the US, and once each group has gotten within putting range of that profoundly reasonable and simple goal, they tend to go rather quiet as a group.

One of the innumerable consequences of the cognitive rigidity and lack of introspection of so many social conservatives is their seeming inability to grasp even a cursory sense of history.

As each group that they’ve aggressively tried to marginalize began to get equal rights, the sky simply didn’t fall. The social conservatives – as is pretty much always the case – were utterly and completely wrong.

But rather than do a bit of contemplation and reflection, they set their sights on whatever their next vulnerable bogeyman of choice must be.

As “God” needs the “devil,” these social conservatives constantly need some shadowy figure to rail against.

And the cynical demagogues who hold power and elective office are only too happy to fan those flames.

[Czarcasm]

Show me.

[thorny_locust]

@puzzlegal

You know that liberals don’t spend a lot of time “ordering the pyramid of oppression”, right? The core idea is that everyone has certain privileges and lacks others. And that it’s helpful to be mindful of that.

Yeah. The whole point is that there is no such pyramid.

@DavidNRockies

As “God” needs the “devil,” these social conservatives constantly need some shadowy figure to rail against.

And the cynical demagogues who hold power and elective office are only too happy to fan those flames.

Yup.

It’s about dividing people, and scaring people, in order to take and/or hold power.

[Babale]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I’ve taken college courses from avowed Marxists

I’m sorry, you must be confused. Marxists (people who are incredibly focused on class issues, and who tend to view social issues through an economic lens as well - what they call Historical Materialism) have absolutely nothing to do with Progressives, who are much more focused on social issues.

In fact, the two groups are often at each other’s throats, because the Marxists think Progressives are falling for a bourgeoisie distraction from class warfare.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I’ve never encountered any sort of “ordering the pyramid of oppression.”

This is a bullshit claim.

Sure you haven’t. Here, I’ll make an introduction.

About a year ago, when everyone was talking about how bad we on the left are doing with young men and how we need a lefty voice that will appeal to them, I came across a group of college age TikTokers who were trying to fight back in the spaces right wing people were dominating. They were getting more and more popular, and while they didn’t particularly appeal to me personally, I thought, “Great! Someone is now fighting on a front we’d done a horrible job of holding.” The lead guy, someone named Dean, was doing really well - he debated a super alt right guy (maybe Fuentes) and he utterly embarrassed him, which was hilarious because he looks and sounds like a kid, but here he is wrecking every point these grown men who’ve been dominant in the right wing spaces for years.

So even though I wasn’t a fan of this kid or his cohort myself, I thought he was doing some cool stuff, and was worth paying attention to.

Earlier this year, I realized, I was right! This might be going somewhere! He was going to be the headliner for a campaign put on by this lady with a PAC, and they’d be going to colleges that Charlie Kirk is visiting with TurningPointUSA to argue with them, challenge Kirk, give left wing talks to push back against Kirk’s guests, and register college students to vote. Some great stuff!

9 DAYS TO UNFUCK AMERICA #politics #maga #trump #political #news #politicalnews

I thought, cool, this is exactly what we need to stop the bleeding in the demographic of young men. This is excellent.

Well, their tour made it to exactly one stop before falling apart. Why did it fall apart? Because the event’s organizer, a white woman, came into a video call where people were criticizing the event, and tried to address some of the criticism. Allegedly, she was “incredibly microaggressive” towards black women during this interaction (isn’t that a bit of an oxymoron? If you’re “incredibly” “micro” aggressive, you’d think that cancels out and you’re just “aggressive”?) - specifically she asked someone not to yell at an Arab girl who was part of the tour, was told that actually they’re yelling at a white girl because “Arabs can be white” and it’s racist of her to ask a black person not to yell at a white person, and then all thirty content creators on the tour agreed that the lady from the video above was a horrible racist who needed to be cancelled, and if that meant they couldn’t keep taking the fight to Kirk, sucks to suck.

But let’s keep pretending that it’s a bullshit claim, that our side doesn’t have a problem with ranking people based on how the groups they belong to rate on the Oppression Olympics, and then being surprised when everything we build falls apart and we become a laughingstock.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Babale

I’m sorry, you must be confused.

Your sneering condescension is neither accurate nor welcomed, and if continued will end this conversation.

@Babale

and it’s racist of her to ask a black person not to yell at a white person

This isn’t a critique of progressive thought. It’s critique of a random crazy asshole.

Yes, there are random crazy assholes everywhere. You just described a random crazy asshole yelling at someone.

I’m unconvinced by the rest of your story, and would prefer some evidence beyond your description. Again, I’ve been involved in this shit for more than a third of a century, and it’s just not how I’ve seen things work.

But I’ll make the concession that sometimes crazy assholes come into progressive/leftist spaces and act like crazy assholes. They rarely have any real power, but they sure can fuck shit up sometimes. Crazy assholes do the same thing on message boards, in McDonald’s, in Neo-Nazi groups, in anime fan clubs, in Bible study groups, and in any other place where people congregate.

[Babale]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

@Babale

and it’s racist of her to ask a black person not to yell at a white person

This isn’t a critique of progressive thought. It’s critique of a random crazy asshole.

Yes, there are random crazy assholes everywhere. You just described a random crazy asshole yelling at someone.

The problem is that this crazy asshole convinced the thirty content creators the tour got together to unanimously agree that Zee needs to go or the tour is cancelled.

If some crazy person criticized Zee, and everyone else in the tour laughed at them, there wouldn’t be an issue.

The problem is that the lunatics are in charge of the asylum.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Babale

The problem is that this racist crazy asshole convinced the thirty content creators the tour got together to unanimously agree that Zee needs to go or the tour is cancelled.

Again, I’m unconvinced by your account (of the specific reasons that they asked her to leave). It’s possible, but it’s overwhelmingly not what I’ve seen in leftist/progressive spaces since 1991.