Nature’s Call, a word:
… on lekatt.
… on Gyan and quantum consciousness.
I don’t differentiate between “enlightenment” that is experienced with or without the use of chemistry or stimulation of the brain from outside sources such as Persinger’s machine.
I have absolutely no way of judging what has transpired in someone else’s mind.
Just because certain chemicals are presently against the law in this country doesn’t mean that they are not a Divine gift.
The only skeptics that annoy me are the ones who are not truly scientific in their skepticism.
I have had “precognitive” dreams (as have several women in my family). I would be very skeptical about such things if there weren’t questions about time itself within the scientific community. As it is, I’m just open to the possibility of precognition.
You must feel very alone in this opinion. Can you point me to a cite describing the Indian boy/reincarnation proof that Sagan rejected? I’ve tried with Google countless combinations of key word and have come up empty.
FWIW I draw your attention to an excerpt from Demon Haunted World entitled The Fine Art of Baloney Detection.
Yes, I think you have addressed it correctly. No one can know what takes place in another’s mind. If you have never experienced an NDE, you can’t judge what one is like. You can only read the accounts and either believe them or not.
Enlightenment, expansion of the mind, transcendent experience, cosmic consciousness, spiritual experiences, and Christ consciousness are terms given to the experience that allows the experiencer to go beyond the material world into the spiritual. It calms the mind and brings peace and joy. Those who haven’t experienced it have difficulty in understanding the phenomenon. But there is nothing new about it, it has been around as long as mankind.
This is the first I’ve heard of Persinger’s machine. I’m intrigued. Google has provided several sites… more reading to do!
One of the questions that is bugging me in this debate is: Are these experiences meaningful, and if so where does the meaning come from? It was becoming apparent that any meaning comes either from the framework one is in whilst undergoing the experience, or one adopted after the experience; the experiences themselves contain no substantive knowledge.
So I’m excited by your report of “precognitive” dreams - an experience that carries with it inherent meaning. Such dreams are a little off topic, I guess, but arguably connected. Would you care to share the details of what was foreseen? (I appreciate your comment about skepticism. While I do not claim to be a professional scientist, I’ll try my best to employ a respectful, honest skepticism)
I thank everyone who has participated in this discussion so far. Perhaps now is a good time to summarize where we’re at. This is what I have taken both from the discussion here and from the cites and other readings referred to or stumbled on:
- “Religious experiences” are far more common than I had expected.
- REs are preceded (I was about to say triggered) often by some distinct, accute stressor or stimulus: heightened emotional state, near death trauma, drugs, Persinger’s machine, centrifuge, others
- The details of an RE vary from generic euphoria, to feelings of cosmic Oneness, lucid dreaming, and (yet to be detailed) precognition
- There is no compelling evidence of the source of REs being other than a manufactured “altered state” within one’s mind.
Did I miss anything?
Note that Persinger’s results have not been independently verified by other teams internationally. Nevertheless, the electromagnetic stimulus certainly appears to do something, ie. cause mental states to change. (Although, we already know that external physical stimuli can cause such changes: what is ‘drinking alcohol’, exactly?)
As for your second question, “meaning” and “significance” are effectively outputs of the amygdala necessary to judge sensory information and prioritise the more important - they are what ‘snap you out of a daydream’ such as seeing an accident when you are driving in a trance. These significance judgments can occasionally “short-circuit” and incorrectly judge incoming sensory information as highly meaningful and significant. We reason this as being because we’ve already dreamed the same thing!
Of course, we haven’t, as people who routinely actually write down their dreams quickly come to find. They just experience deja vu.
Yes, REs, can and do happen in relaxed, peaceful states, I provided links to examples.
There is compelling evidence of the brain being totally dead when the experience takes place.
REs consist of a great deal more than what you have listed, there are information exchanges, total personality changes, etc. I won’t elaborate, the links I have provided will show the way if interest is there.
I sometimes wonder how long it will take before the denial subsides. Who knows maybe years. But whatever is true about spiritual experiences will surface in the long run. Truth always wins in the end.
Actually, I would say that the meaning of these experiences is not expressible using existing semantics, hence the need to integrate afterwards.
Right, it took me over three years to integrate my experience, unfortunately some never do. I was lucky in the first few months to have encountered a person who helped me a lot. She also had integrated a near death experience many years earlier. During the experience communication is instant, without words, through feelings and emotions. If words are spoken they are directions, not information about life. I was asked if I wanted to go on or remain. Most are told they must remain and finish their lives, after which they are returned to their bodies.
Thanks
lekatt, I personally, have met exactly one person in real life who had an NDE. It was when she was pronounced dead from a drug overdose. She did not have a sweetness-and-light, loved-ones-waiting-for-her, profound-sense-of-peace experience. Hers was one of horror, terror, and something distinctly unpleasant chasing her. In her case, it chased her back to life. I’ve no reason to doubt others have had similarly horrific experiences, even though they’re not as well publicized. This is one reason I completely disbelieve your spirituality. There’s also a slight matter of you calling me against religion once. Don’t bother replying. I’ve seen too much of you.
Getting back to the OP, I haven’t had a Pentecostal-style speaking-in-tongues type of religious experience. It doesn’t suit me. I have been fortunate enough to experience a profound sense of peace and all being right with the world, something which doesn’t come easily to me. I’ve sung "Alleluia"s in my car been reassured in stressful and frightening times, including once about 5 minutes before I was laid off. I’m a translator and linguist. To me, Pentecost is the “Feast of All Translators” 
and is about God’s word being made accessible to all people in a form they understand, no mere human intervention necessary. For some, that will be a fit of wild, religious ecstasy in the midst of a crowd of believers. For me, one of these moments came when I was alone on a religious retreat formally dedicating myself to God once again and asking Him to show me what to do to serve Him best. The results of that moment changed my life profoundly.
I can’t explain my faith in a way which would satisfy a hard atheist, or even a lot of soft agnostics. I’m not sure I’d want one which I could, because that might mean God was small enough and limited enough to be fully comprehended by my mind. I want a god who’s bigger than that, who utterly transcends all human comprehension. I’ve got too many limits for my taste. I want a god who’s beyond them. The God I worship is one who is powerful beyond human imagination, who can create worlds I can’t begin to envision, and yet one who even with galaxies and universes whirling about and billions of human beings alone demanding His immediate attention, take notice of a young woman lying in a mental hospital trying like mad to die (that was me, many years ago), or a not-so-young woman fighting pain and depression, trying to do exercises that hurt so that someday walking will stop hurting (that was me, this past Sunday).
I’m not given to public religious ecstasies. I’m English, Episcopalian, and inhibited. Private moments of sheer joy and wonder, however, I am prone to and grateful for. I wouldn’t trade them for speaking in tongues a hundred times over. Besides, speaking as a translator, there are enough languages I can’t speak consistently fluently!
Respectfully,
CJ
Yes, there are negative NDEs, all researchers are aware of them. There is disagreement as to how many. Some say only 3%, others as high as 25%. I have collected over 225 experiences, only 5 or 6 of these negative. I believe the percentage is low. Most of the negative ones are due to drugs or attempted suicide, but not all. Also there are some drug overdoses, and attempted suicides that are positive. I don’t know much more than this about the negative ones.
There are also cases where the patient dies and is revived, but has no experience at all. A portion of these people will remember a NDE later in life.
Most NDEs are positive.
There is a book, “Blessing in Disguise”, by Barbara R. Rommer, M.D. that covers negative NDEs. Dr. Rommer spent most of her life researching negative NDEs.
This info is for anyone interested.
I’ll add some thoughts and an experience into the fray.
The thread-related backstory to this anecdote is that I am currently, and was at the time, a pretty firm believer in the non-material basis of the mind (consciousness). As mojave66 pointed out, external phenomena (red as a wavelength, brain activity) is different from direct, qualitative experience (what it’s like to see red). In a nutshell, given the unbridged gap between the two, and the fact that we have only ever known the latter, I take mind-stuff as primary. I also believe the world is real. Consciousness is its basis, and it’s real. Thus the gap disappears and there is no contradiction between spiritual experiences and the methods and insights provided by science. (Again, nutshell version.)
So, an experience. Several years ago, I was participating in an unguided group meditation. I was following a pseudo-Buddhist/Ramana Maharshi “Who Am I?” line of enquiry that went like this: Am I the body? The body grows, deteriorates, and fades away–no self there. Am I the emotions? Emotions rise and fall according to circumstances, usually of their own accord–no self there. Am I my thoughts, such as the ones I am thinking right now? I ‘see’ these thoughts and am reflecting on them, so cannot be them. But, then, who am I? Upon asking the final question, it seemed as if the floor of my mind fell out and I was engulfed in a vast, pitch-black void. Simultaneously, I was aware of my body–usually extremely tense–becoming acutely loose and relaxed. A surge of “energy” burst up from the bottom of my spine and I almost yelled out. My body shook and vibrated while tears streamed down my face. It took all of my effort to not to burst out crying/laughing (was afraid of disturbing the others around me). The experience lasted a few minutes and a slight euphoria remained throughout the day. There were no insights into the “oneness” of the universe or divine revelations, just the feeling of being utterly groundless.
Oh, and I’m the new messiah.
I should add that, as the experience began, it scared the living shit out of me – I felt like I was being extinguished. Drawing my attention towards the void, the fear subsided and tranquility took over (paradoxically accompanied by the crazy bodily response).
Also, I’ve never taken any recreational drugs. The only times I’ve had experiences like this are when they are brought about deliberately, through philosophical enquiry or meditative pursuit. I’m not religious in that I don’t follow a religion, but I occasionally enjoy a good hymn, cathedral, or myth. I think most “psychics” are quacks and that if real psychic abilities are possible, it’s a total waste of time. I’m not into gushy star-sprinkled mystical journies. Everything, whether personal or shared, is thought–and it’s going to fade. I’d like to find out what, if anything, doesn’t fade.
You will never fade. You are a part of the prime energy force, and as such will never fade. You will take different forms as all energy does, but “who you are” is eternal.
Your experience is called the Kundalini. It happens often during deep meditation. Had you not been so frightened it would have led you to the Oneness of all things. But I understand, I was scared the first time it happened to me also.
The deeper you get into spiritual pursuits the more it feels like you’re giving up something. That something is the ego, the mask, the shield you carry between you and others for your presumed safety. Few can drop the shield more than just a little, but that is enough to experience the Oneness.
Psychics are the ministers of spirituality. They teach, heal, counsel, and console any who asks of them. They do not tell fortunes. True, some represent themselves as psychics who are not, or at least not very good psychics. Those that are talented excell and practice as long as they wish. The untalented soon find themselves without clients. They are entitled to charge money for their services as well as any other occupation or service, but many of them work free having other sources of income to support them. William James said of Psychics: “they are the poor man’s psychiatrist.” Does it work, yes.
My site offers spiritual principles to anyone who desires them free. They write me letters, the letters are positive. I get only two to three negative letters a year, usually from a skeptic or a fundamental.
Red as a wavelength read out on a meter is a different experience than looking at a rose, but both are qualitative experiences. That’s all we have to work with. To arbitrarily declare that all is mental or that all is material has no information value. How would you test either assertion?
I Missed most of this thread while on vacation. Doing a brief reading some of it seems pretty interesting. Pardon my late entry. I have a few experiences I’d like to share.
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In the mid seventies I was a member of a church that raught divine revelation through the Holy Spirit. This might take the form of spiritual and personal insight through study or prayer as well as other more “miraculous” forms. During a prayer meeting a visiting missionary was “moved by the spirit” to speak to several people including myself. What impressed me at the time was a deep insight into my heart and thoughts, even things that I was only vaguely aware of, from a man who I had only met the day before.
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The next two are non religous experiences, which someone asked about. Ten or twelve years ago, after years of not belonging to any church, I was exploring more independent spiritual beliefs. I had a couple of incidents, one in particular, of hearing my inner voice very clearly, as if it were a seperate voice. It was a startling experience. I was just casually thinking about what to do concerning a certain thing and the answer came distinctly and clearly as if another voice was speaking although I was aware that it was completely internal. After that incident in my studies I have read of others having a similar experience.
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Several years ago a woman I loved and I had decided to go our seperate ways. It was a very traumatic time for me. During our last evening together my mind was raceing as I lay beside her. Sleepless hours passed and I was in mental and emotional torment. In my mind I asked for a little reast and some peace. What happened next might have been a vision, an out of body experience, or lucid dream. I don’t know. In my mind I saw us both rise out of our bodies to hover above the bed. Music began to play and we danced together. We were happy and smiling at each other. Peaceful and with love in our hearts. I realized that the music we were dancing to was our joint composition made up of all the choices we had made big and small. There was no one to blame and no need for deep regret.
Whatever real love we felt for each other was still there and still be there after we had parted. I was able to feel that love and still let go of our time together and accept what was. The next morning I woke up free of all anxiety. I was happy and feeling spiritually high. I said goodbye to my love feeling completely at peace with the moment. A friend came to pick me up and dropped me off at the bus station. As we talked he watched me and commented. “Dan, you are almost glowing”
These experiences have been milestones for me and set a standard of what I strive for. Simply put, if I can exerience those moments of peace, contentment, love, deeper knowing, and a complete release of anger and anxiety, then why not have more of those moments. It seems a better goal than the alternatives. We use certain words to describe these experiences and too often let different words cause division. God, Allah, Great Spirit, the Force, the Universal mind. It doesn’t matter what term you use. I like the term “mysterium tremndum” used in a recent thread. Was that you Nature’s Call that coined that phrase? It’s a good one.
There is a certain something that connects us. I see it as the source of all truth, all knowledge, as well as the well from which all love is drawn. I believe many of these experiences are glimpses of that certain something. These experiences are filtered through the concerns and emotions of the individuals and can vary greatly.Each individual must decide what they mean for themselves.
When you break it down, the experience of getting a reading from a meter–or any experience–is constituted of qualitative phenomena, yeah. But with the red-as-wavelength idea I was referring to the inferred wholly independent (from mind), external, material world – which, I would think, most people believe in wholeheartedly. I’m just saying that believing in such a thing causes a serious philosophical problem – the mind-body problem, which remains a huge, unresolved issue nowadays in philosophy. Saying that the body and world arise from mind solves the problem but raises others, like how do I know the world isn’t my own personal, imaginary creation? As you point out, you can’t really test this. What can we do? Well, I just go with what I know for sure: that I am. Bringing my full awareness to bear on this little nugget will, I hope, offer me a few insights and not drive me nuts.
I will reiterate that, having no direct experience, I believe (not know) that world arises from an “internal” source (with mind as a priori, internal/external don’t apply). I take the world, as it is in itself, to be principles and seed-thoughts that get manifested by a pure, impersonal awareness. World-creation is cooperative. Sounds a bit mystical but it’s not much different from saying the world is made of quantum energy or something. The difference is small and monumental. The world is still real, still important; just, it’s an idea. It’s nothing new, this strain of thought has been around a long time. Most people don’t like it but I’m obviously pretty keen on it.
The reason I bring all this stuff up is that it justifies spiritual experiences people have as being meaningful. If we’re just this hunk of electrified meat, then these experiences can’t provide us with anything more than temporary dreamy goodness. If, on the other hand, we are mind first, then such experiences could actually be pushing us towards a deeper understanding of reality itself.
Including you?
How do you know this?
Does internal/external apply or not?
This sounds nice and I’m sympathetic to what you’re saying, but the reason I am somewhat antagonistic is that what you and many mystics say sounds a bit hazy – it just lacks precision. For instance, what’s “energy force” mean? What is its nature? How do we know when we experience the true energy force and when we’re hallucinating? When you say I never fade, who or what is I? Bupkis will fade, that’s for damn sure–he’ll rot in the ground and be eaten by worms. His loved ones, they won’t last long either. So what is it in “me” that sticks around? How does what sticks around interact with what doesn’t? If soul is imutable and eternal, then what point does self-improvement have? I’m already perfect. If soul does change, then “who I am” changes from instant to instant – how can that be called permanent selfhood? In what non-changing space would such changes be known, and by what method?
I disgress a little, and these questions are mostly rhetorical. I’m not really disagreeing with you here, I’m just looking to bring philosophical soundness to the explanations we give for the experiences we have. Most of the time, when those of mystical bent give explanations, they’re not really explaining anything, just making new labels.