Remind me: Why am I supposed to hate Cuba?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=NDP]
(1) Aside from keeping the Cuban-American vote in Florida happy, is there any good reason why the U.S. should not resume diplomatic relations with Cuba?
[/QUOTE]

Probably not (I assume you mean lift the embargo, though you ask this in the next part so maybe not…afaik we have at least limited diplomatic relations with Cuba atm). But then again…there is really no urgent reason that we SHOULD lift the embargo afaik. They have no products we need (save cigars I guess)…which is probably why no one has bothered to push for it. The political hit from those Cuban-American’s in Florida outweigh the possible benefits and, simply put, most American’s don’t care.

[QUOTE=NDP]
(2) Also, is there any good reason why the U.S. should not call off its economic embargo of Cuba (and stop harassing the American citizens who take trips there or buy Cuban cigars)?
[/QUOTE]

Pretty much answered this above. There isn’t a good ENOUGH reason to lift it or it would have BEEN lifted already. Cuba has nothing we need badly enough for people to care enough for the thing to be lifted. If/when we do, or if things change (the excuse being Castro finally dead and buried) then that equation will probably change as well. Until then…well, status quo…

-XT

42

[QUOTE=ShibbOleth]
Rum and coke is now a Cuba Libre!
[/QUOTE]

Funny you should mention that. I’ve heard some Cubans order it as a “menterita” because Cuba is not “libre.”

menterita=little lie.

43

[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
Let me get this straight.

Preserve the status quo. Well, Castro was in office when we started the embargo, Castro is still in office. Check.

So, this entire thing was a super secret plan to support Castro?

I really never guessed.

Tris
[/QUOTE]

I think Lemur got it right in his first attempt – it’s all about getting the votes of the all-powerful Cubans that (let’s face it) pretty much own Florida. See the late Mas Canosa’s CANF. All else (tough talk, travel restrictions, etc,) is window-dressing by either Party to get their votes. More than likely the second wealthiest Washington lobby after AIPAC.

Basically formed by the Cuban elite that left Cuba when they saw things weren’t going to go their way during the uprising. Of course, many/most of them (as is common in most LA countries) already had had most of their fortunes in overseas US dollars. Hell’s bells I was ‘lucky’ enough to go to HS with a handful of these ‘venerable’ folks in Madrid – Lincoln Diaz-Balart, a couple of years my senior and now a US Congressman for years, was my HS student-body President for his last two years in same.

A jock at the time, didn’t care much for politics, but still thought the guy was an a-hole just by the way he carried himself and the speeches he gave – could have sworn the dude thought he was the Real Lincoln when he spoke. Of course, this being the early 70’s not many of us gave a damn – in fact, he was good for a laugh.

Shows how far ahead – politically --he already was. Groomed from birth to be a politician, no way his mannerisms and the tone were a 16 year olds’, but rather those of a well groomed politician, a ‘true’ Cuban blue-blood – even if many of us thought it came off as silly in HS, it was all part of a very good plan, which, of course, we had no clue of.

Hey! They might have lost Cuba for a generation or two, but they won/bought most of Florida (and a couple of LA countries I can think of), not half-bad if I may say so myself.

44

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Hey! They might have lost Cuba for a generation or two, but they won/bought most of Florida (and a couple of LA countries I can think of), not half-bad if I may say so myself.
[/QUOTE]

Well, since we (the US) stole it from you (Spanish), the irony must be…interesting…for you. I know I find it so whenever I think about it.

-XT

45

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Nothing, really, meaning the people of Cuba.

In fairness, Castro’s a nasty dictator who’s…
[/QUOTE]

And he’s somehow different from all the other nasty dictators that are/have been US allies or trading partners? :rolleyes:

46

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Funny you should mention that. I’ve heard some Cubans order it as a “menterita” because Cuba is not “libre.”

menterita=little lie.
[/QUOTE]

Petty as it is, I figured a wordly man such as yourself should know that the word is “mentirita.”

Créeme, yo nunca te diría una mentira – ni una mentirita siquiera.

47

The embargo was reasonable when Cuba was a client state of the Soviet Union, a meddler in Central and South America, and a serious threat in the U.S. backyard.

Since the end of the cold war, IMO, the embargo has been counter-productive and should be ended.

[QUOTE=xtisme]
Probably not (I assume you mean lift the embargo, though you ask this in the next part so maybe not…afaik we have at least limited diplomatic relations with Cuba atm). But then again…there is really no urgent reason that we SHOULD lift the embargo afaik. They have no products we need (save cigars I guess)…which is probably why no one has bothered to push for it. The political hit from those Cuban-American’s in Florida outweigh the possible benefits and, simply put, most American’s don’t care.

[/quote]

It’s always an advantage to have a rich trading partner in your backyard than an economic basket case. And tying the Cuban economy to American exports and imports has a geopolitical advantage as well - it gives Cuba a reason to stay on good terms with the United States (as opposed to say, joining forces with Hugo Chavez and becoming a big problem again).

Finally, the best way to end Communism is to let the market insinuate it and rot it out from the inside. Let people have a little taste of freedom, and they’ll want more. That’s how most of the Communist countries in the world wound up migrating to the free market. Why cut off that path for Cuba?

As others have said, the real reason is the large and powerful Cuban expatriate community in Florida, a key swing state. They have disproportiate power, and they don’t want normalized relations because they still have plans to go back one day and reclaim what they believe is rightfully theirs.

Where have we heard that before? A community who won’t be reasonable because they are holding on to a long-standing grievance, and with an unrealistic attitude regarding what they think they can reclaim if only they hold out long enough?

48

[QUOTE=xtisme]
Well, since we (the US) stole it from you (Spanish), the irony must be…interesting…for you. I know I find it so whenever I think about it.

-XT
[/QUOTE]

Might not want to thgink about it too much. For the Cubans that own Miami (and most of Florida) are basically the (with some mixing of course, not like we acted like the Anglos in that respect) direct descendants of the Spaniards who divvied-up Cuba’s natural wealth amongst themselves to begin with.

Thus in that sense, you might end up realizing is just our own devious way of doing a “Reconquista.”

49

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Petty as it is, I figured a wordly man such as yourself should know that the word is “mentirita.”

Créeme, yo nunca te diría una mentira – ni una mentirita siquiera.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry. While I know approximately five languages, in four of these I can converse well enough to get fed, drunk, laid or arrested. That’s about it.

The fifth language is good only for annoying people on message boards.

50

Hot damn, Sam! Get me the smelling salts pronto.

For not only do I totally agree with you on this matter, but IMHO, Castro would have long gone if it wasn’t for the US’s Government – BOTH Parties, let me be real clear here – cowtowing to the almighty CANF.

Say, maybe we could get together for a Scotch after all. And I do mean the drink not a a dude from northern Britain .

On me.

51

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Sorry. While I know approximately five languages, in four of these I can converse well enough to get fed, drunk, laid or arrested. That’s about it.

The fifth language is good only for annoying people on message boards.
[/QUOTE]

Quite alright. As always you get the best of me for I only speak four. Spanish, English, un petite peu de Francais, and on the phone.

OTOH, I have little doubt you can be annoying in any language – including sign.

52

[QUOTE=RedFury]
OTOH, I have little doubt you can be annoying in any language – including sign.
[/QUOTE]

…/´¯/)
…,/¯../
…/…/
…/´¯/‘…’/´¯¯`·¸
…/‘/…/…/…/¨¯
…(’(…´…´… ¯~/‘…’)
….…‘…/
…’'….… _.·´
….…(
….…...

:wink:

53

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
…/´¯/)
…,/¯../
…/…/
…/´¯/‘…’/´¯¯`·¸
…/‘/…/…/…/¨¯
…(’(…´…´… ¯~/‘…’)
….…‘…/
…’'….… _.·´
….…(
….…...

:wink:
[/QUOTE]

Good one. And thanks for proving my point.

54

[QUOTE=xtisme]
Well, since we (the US) stole it from you (Spanish), the irony must be…interesting…for you. I know I find it so whenever I think about it.
[/QUOTE]

More like “helped liberate” it. We didn’t keep the place after 1898, because we didn’t control it even then.

55

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Might not want to thgink about it too much. For the Cubans that own Miami (and most of Florida) are basically the (with some mixing of course, not like we acted like the Anglos in that respect) direct descendants of the Spaniards who divvied-up Cuba’s natural wealth amongst themselves to begin with.
[/QUOTE]

Well…yeah. That was kind of the point I was making. Thats why I said YOU would find it ironic. :wink: For my part I can certainly see the irony…and the funny thing is that we can share it (for different reasons), but a lot of other folks it will fly right over their heads.

[QUOTE=Sam Stone]
It’s always an advantage to have a rich trading partner in your backyard than an economic basket case. And tying the Cuban economy to American exports and imports has a geopolitical advantage as well - it gives Cuba a reason to stay on good terms with the United States (as opposed to say, joining forces with Hugo Chavez and becoming a big problem again).
[/QUOTE]

To be sure. However, since those political factors currently outweigh the apathy of the rest of the country wrt Cuba, nothing is likely to be done until something changes…probably until Castro dies.

I agree that it would have been smart if the US had the vision to disengage from the embargo when the old Soviet Union folded its hand…but the reality was no politician running for national office was going to do that for the reasons others have stated.

From my PERSONAL perspective I’ve been for disengagement from our cold war policies wrt Cuba for quite a while (if for no other reason than to get good Cuban cigars without having to go to Canada and paying an arm and a leg for them)…while understanding the reality of why it hasn’t happened. Its not on most peoples radar…while all those juicy Cuban-American votes ARE to folks running for office.

-XT

56

Fair enough, XT. Didn’t give you due credit this time around.

Right you/we are.

57

[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
More like “helped liberate” it. We didn’t keep the place after 1898, because we didn’t control it even then.
[/QUOTE]

Dunno, Elvis. This is one of the few times I’ve disagreed with you, but for me – and history as I was taught it – Cuba was but the beginning of the US of A’s age of neo-colonialism. And point in fact, you did control it and its resources up until the fall of Batista.

Cuba

Maybe the books we learned from had different biases?

58

[QUOTE=RedFury]
heodore Roosevelt, who had fought in the Spanish-American War and had some sympathies with the independence movement, succeeded McKinley as President of the United States in 1901 and abandoned the 20-year treaty proposal. Instead, the Republic of Cuba gained formal independence on 20 May 1902, with the independence leader Tomás Estrada Palma becoming the country’s first president.Under the new Cuban constitution, however, the U.S. retained the right to intervene in Cuban affairs and to supervise its finances and foreign relations.

Maybe the books we learned from had different biases?
[/QUOTE]

This was known as the Platt Ammendment (Enmienda Platt), and was removed from the Cuban constitution in the 1930’s. There was a new constitution created in 1940 which functioned until Batista’s coup in 1952. Castro’s government ruled without a constitution until the mid 1970’s when a USSR style constitution was put in place.

59

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Basically formed by the Cuban elite that left Cuba when they saw things weren’t going to go their way during the uprising. Of course, many/most of them (as is common in most LA countries) already had had most of their fortunes in overseas US dollars. Hell’s bells I was ‘lucky’ enough to go to HS with a handful of these ‘venerable’ folks in Madrid – Lincoln Diaz-Balart, a couple of years my senior and now a US Congressman for years, was my HS student-body President for his last two years in same.

A jock at the time, didn’t care much for politics, but still thought the guy was an a-hole just by the way he carried himself and the speeches he gave – could have sworn the dude thought he was the Real Lincoln when he spoke. Of course, this being the early 70’s not many of us gave a damn – in fact, he was good for a laugh.

Shows how far ahead – politically --he already was. Groomed from birth to be a politician, no way his mannerisms and the tone were a 16 year olds’, but rather those of a well groomed politician, a ‘true’ Cuban blue-blood – even if many of us thought it came off as silly in HS, it was all part of a very good plan, which, of course, we had no clue of.

Hey! They might have lost Cuba for a generation or two, but they won/bought most of Florida (and a couple of LA countries I can think of), not half-bad if I may say so myself.
[/QUOTE]

Well, the Diaz-Balart family did not lose Cuba, they are still firmly in power there. Both Lincoln and Mario are nephews of Fidel Castro’s first wife Mirta, and cousins to Fidel’s oldest son Fidelito. Once Fidel dies and Raul moves on, it is very possible that Fidelito will take over, he has been much more visible in the government lately, in which case the Diaz-Balarts will have political influence in two countries. Interesting dinasty, right?

60

Mr. Moto, this is an official notice that ASCII “art” is no more permitted than text when issuing insults in GD.

If you need to express that sentiment that badly, even in jest, open a Pit thread.

[ /Moderating ]