Remove religion from everything public?

[bordelond]

*Originally posted by Mangetout *
**I’m also a little confused as to how the separation of government and religion should impact on commercial advertising.

Certainly the government should not be actively promoting any particular religion, but the same could be said of commerical ties too - the government shouldn’t be trying to tell us to drink Pepsi instead of Coke, yet it is still OK for Coke and Pepsi to buy airtime on commercial television, in order to promote their products.

Isn’t it the same with religion? Shouldn’t religious organisations be permitted to buy commercial airtime to advertise their products? Like Coke and Pepsi, you’re not compelled to make a purchase. **

Perhaps the OP’s angle is more related to the concept of “offense”.

For example, I think the FCC would have something to say if the Ku Klux Klan attempted to procure members through televison or radio advertisement. If we can accept this premise, among the likely reasons for keeping the Klan off the airwaves is that the Klan’s raison d’etre is offensive to so many people.

Consider also television advertisement of gentlemen’s clubs or escort services on primetime network television that may happen to feature full-frontal nudity. The FCC would pull the plug on the grounds of public offense (presumably and for the sake of argument).

So it seems to be for the OP, and some others in this thread regarding Christianity. Some consider public displays of Christianity (both in person and in media) profane and offensive, so they ask – why must WE be subject to offense when that which offends others is so often kept in check?

The uphill battle the OP faces, though, is that public offense is only considered if the number of people offended is significant in some way. It need not be a majority of the populace, of course. But you can’t just raise your hand and say “I’m offended!” There has to be more going on that is perceived as harming the good of the public in some way.

[Lucki_Chaarms]

I can’t believe what some of you are advocating here. A private network should have to show only advertisements that you agree with? Nothing offensive to anyone should be shown on TV? What kind of logic is this? Freedom of speech does not end with what gets you in a huff, and I’m really thankful for that. There is already a built-in system for handling this. If it bugs you that much, don’t watch. Maybe write a letter. Don’t go running to the government and tell them to make everyone you don’t agree with shut up.

As for religion’s place in anything public, I think this can be a bit of a gray area. I myself am not religious, and I don’t think much of organized religion. However, this is supposed to be a government of the people, and a majority of the people here are Christian. Do they not have a right to have their values reflected by the governing officials that they elected to represent them? I’m honestly not sure how I come out on that one.

LC

[Mangetout]

How, though, would you objectively quantify offense?

I agree, there is an imbalance in what people would consider offensive and in the case of America (certain parts of it, anyway) it would seem that the imbalance favours Christianity - there’s probably quite a lot of cultural inertia behind that, but wouldn’t it be better to see enablement of alternative voices than suppression of the current ones? (I don’t live in America, so perhaps I’ve got a bad grip of the situation anyway)

I can well imagine that someone could be deeply offended by hellfire and damnation preaching, or even something substantially less aggressive, but how is something like Veggie Tales offensive? (except perhaps by association) - I can’t see it being any more objectionable than a cartoon embodying simplified elements from some other culture or religion.

[Pabitel]

*Originally posted by HomerIU *
**I also don’t recall seeing many religous icons on public property either, except at churches and during the Christmas season. Maybe I am not paying attention or something. I don’t feel overly advertised to by any religous group. **

Here is a good overview article. Search any hometown newspaper in the month of December and I’m sure you will find at least one story.

Chances are you are not paying attention because you are a Christian. For non-Christians living in the US of today is a pain. Every week some fundy freak tries to come up with a new way to shove their personal opinion of “The Way” down your throat. If it isn’t some redneck judge and his religious monument then it is the President talking about how he is on a mission from God. If it isn’t recievers saying prayers in the end zone then it is a cow-orker telling you how great god is because there was a pretty sunrise this morning.

Do what you like in your private life, whether that means going to swingers clubs or racing cars or being a religious nut, but please keep it to yourself.

Suppose you had people out of nowhere telling you five - ten times a day that you really ought to get a tatoo. That is what it is like being non-Christian in the US. After a while you just want to stand up and shout, “Shut up about the damn tatoos.”

[bordelond]

*Originally posted by Lucki Chaarms *
Freedom of speech does not end with what gets you in a huff … However, this is supposed to be a government of the people, and a majority of the people here are Christian. Do they not have a right to have their values reflected by the governing officials that they elected to represent them?

I agree with you, so let me play Devil’s (!) Advocate:

People offended by public Christianity may attempt to appeal to the concept that even in a “government of the people”, the rights of minority groups need to be protected from the rule of the minority. After all, they may ask, isn’t this the case with ethnic minorities in America? With minorities of sexual orientation? With women?

But what the OP has to show is that the minority of those offended by public Christianity are being harmed in some significant way by public displays of Christianity.

Let’s take a “worst case” scenario – your teenager is sufficiently moved by Christian advertising to begin attending the local church’s Wednesday night musical service. Could you successfully convince a judge in America that your child and family was somehow harmed?

Yes – perhaps in this case your teenager did not take up the moral position you wished to impart. Perhaps the Christian advertisers interfered with your parenting? But then consider – the immediate society-at-large imparts cultural mores to you child anyway. There’s just no way to keep your child from taking in from the outisde world. If you want your child to eschew religion, you can only do so much. After a while, they make up their own minds.

Censoring Christian advertising is not the answer.

[Mangetout]

I can see how it must annoy you, Degrance; I feel exactly the same way about football(soccer to you), which people can’t seem to stop talking about, ever, or asking me which team I support.
But it can’t be a good thing to have the government legislate to stop your co-worker talking about her sunrise revelations, can it? Y’know, freedom of speech and all that (which also enables you to tell him/her that you’re sick to death of such vapid ramblings and how beatuiful sunrises are, in fact, caused by optical effects in the atmosphere).

[bordelond]

*Originally posted by Degrance *
Chances are you are not paying attention because you are a Christian. For non-Christians living in the US of today is a pain. Every week some fundy freak tries to come up with a new way to shove their personal opinion of “The Way” down your throat. If it isn’t some redneck judge and his religious monument then it is the President talking about how he is on a mission from God. If it isn’t recievers saying prayers in the end zone then it is a cow-orker telling you how great god is because there was a pretty sunrise this morning.

Aside from the “fundy freaks”, who may be committing harassment or assault if they are especially ardent, how are the rest of your examples “a pain”? How are you affected?

Seriously, are you prevented from getting gainful employment? Prevented from lliving in a certain area? Not allowed to shop or eat in the palces of your choice? What is it?

All I’m getting from you is that “you don’t like it”. Why is that a sufficient reason in and of itself?

[Darph]

“Saul of Tarsis” AHh yes,…a Roman who murdered christians for Fun…but then somthing happened… an angel came down and kicked his butt,and converted him to christanity.

He changed his name to paul…and became the most important Christian prophet to date.

[Lucki_Chaarms]

Very good, Darph, you get a cookie!

I think some people just need to grow a bit of a skin about this sort of thing. No, I’m not religious. Yes, I encounter a fair amount of religious stuff that I don’t agree with. That’s the way it’s supposed to be! The point is, you DO NOT have a right not to hear viewpoints you don’t like. The idea that the government should step in to pull advertising from a privately run TV network because you disagree with its message (though not to the degree that you would just turn the damn thing off) is not only stupid but dangerous. A network pulling something because of pressure from the Christian majority (i.e. the viewers) is purely a business decision. It works the other way too, and that’s the way it should be. Just because a business doesn’t wish to offend their customers by spreading your message for you doesn’t mean that your free speech is being impeded.

LC

[Pabitel]

*Originally posted by Mangetout *
**But it can’t be a good thing to have the government legislate to stop your co-worker talking about her sunrise revelations, can it? Y’know, freedom of speech and all that (which also enables you to tell him/her that you’re sick to death of such vapid ramblings and how beatuiful sunrises are, in fact, caused by optical effects in the atmosphere). **

My last post was a reply to another poster who said that they didn’t ever see religion being promoted in daily life, not a response to the OP. If you read my earlier post you will see that I respect and support the Bill of Rights.

I ranted a bit because I saw a Christian saying, “what? where? I don’t see it.” when someone suggested that religious advertising was ubiquitous.

As to your final comment I’m afraid that the pro-Christian bias intrudes into office politics there as well. The co-worker spouting this drivel is thought of as “sweet” for dumping her religion all over everybody whereas I would be seen as “rude” for raining on her little warm, fuzzy parade.

[Pabitel]

*Originally posted by bordelond *
Aside from the “fundy freaks”, who may be committing harassment or assault if they are especially ardent, how are the rest of your examples “a pain”? How are you affected?

I’m affected because it is incessant. Go back to my example. Sit still for a minute and actually try to imagine complete strangers coming up to you (in person, via tv, the internet, radio, print, etc.) five to ten times a day and telling you that you, personally, should get a tattoo. Not only that but each of them has a specific tattoo they have picked out for you, no two alike. Now imagine this going on for years.

But then what do you care, How are you affected?

Seriously, are you prevented from getting gainful employment? Prevented from lliving in a certain area? Not allowed to shop or eat in the palces of your choice? What is it?

There are a lot of ways to affect a person other than those you have enumerated. Just doing whatever you can to make someone feel like they are second best is a form of discrimination and an obstacle to happiness. Religions would collapse if they didn’t use this tactic. In some places in the US your religion does affect your employment opportunities. There was a post I was reading just today about a major newspaper controlled by a religion and how you couldn’t get promoted unless you were a member.

**All I’m getting from you is that “you don’t like it”. Why is that a sufficient reason in and of itself? **

Reason for what exactly? Asking for religious types to shut up? I don’t think I need any more reason than that to ask annoying people to shut up. 'Cause asking religious types to please shut up is the only proposal I have made here.

[Mangetout]

*Originally posted by Degrance *
**As to your final comment I’m afraid that the pro-Christian bias intrudes into office politics there as well. The co-worker spouting this drivel is thought of as “sweet” for dumping her religion all over everybody whereas I would be seen as “rude” for raining on her little warm, fuzzy parade. **

Sure, but legislation isn’t going to change that; it’s just an unfortunate(for you) feature of the prevailing culture in which you happen to find yourself immersed.

Seriously, I get the same thing with football; I have never been able to understand the attraction of watching a bunch of grown men kicking a ball about, and yet it is me that is made to appear unreasonable; when the all-too-frequent big football events come around, I’ll be quizzed about my football hopes and loyalties by friends and colleagues(all of whom have, in their enthusiasm and excitement, totally forgotten my disinterest/aversion), shop assistants will attempt to engage me in conversation about last night’s match. All through which I awkwardly look at my feet, shuffle and admit that “Ummm, I’m… errr… not really into football”, whereupon we then must have the conversation about what great things I’m missing, and how strange and empty my life must be, and don’t I have any interests?
The TV channels are clogged with football coverage, fully one third of the TV and printed news is given over to it, it is in my face all the time.
It’s just something that I ‘don’t get’ and I have to accept that - it is part of the culture in the place I live and unless I become a hermit, I’m stuck with it.

Now we should be careful, because (despite no end of grief in past threads) I’ve just used an analogy, albeit a completely honest, non-fictional one - there are doubtless many non-parallels between football and religion, but the valid comparison is that here is something that makes no sense to me at all and I find inconvenient and occasionally extremely annoying, and yet it is an important and worthy(to them) part of the lives of others

I can’t expect the law to stop football from being rammed down my throat.

[bordelond]

*Originally posted by Degrance *
I’m affected because it is incessant. Go back to my example. Sit still for a minute and actually try to imagine complete strangers coming up to you (in person, via tv, the internet, radio, print, etc.) five to ten times a day and telling you that you, personally, should get a tattoo. Not only that but each of them has a specific tattoo they have picked out for you, no two alike. Now imagine this going on for years.

Funny you should pick that example. Actually, there are many messages in the media that tattoos are cool, mainstream, and that everyone should feel compelled to get one and be hip. (There are also many messages going the other way, to be sure).

The media tells me a lot of things I’d rather not hear. I weight too much, I exercise too little, I’ll never look as good as Justin Timberlake, I’ll never pull in the ladies like Colin Farrell, I don’t make enough money, etc., etc., etc.

Thankfully, my self-esteem serves as a great buffer for all of this. I define myself. If you do, too, than Christian prolesytization should me no more than a mild, temporary nuisance. Even 5-10 times a day.

*Originally posted by Degrance *
There are a lot of ways to affect a person other than those you have enumerated. Just doing whatever you can to make someone feel like they are second best is a form of discrimination and an obstacle to happiness.

At what point are you responsible for your own happiness? Could you perhaps have a shorter memory and thcker skin? Why do you take religious messages and stew over them?

And really, do commercials for Christian music (for example) really “do whatever [they] can to make someone feel like they are second best”? Really? If so, IMHO, that’s your problem, not theirs.

*Originally posted by Degrance *
Religions would collapse if they didn’t use this tactic.

Nitpick: belittlement is a tactic of people, not religions.

*Originally posted by Degrance *
In some places in the US your religion does affect your employment opportunities. There was a post I was reading just today about a major newspaper controlled by a religion and how you couldn’t get promoted unless you were a member.

This is exceedingly rare to my experience, but there are some cases of this, to be sure. At least the (federal) law is on your side in these case – it is unlawful to discriminate on the basis of religion.

*Originally posted by Degrance *
**I don’t think I need any more reason than that to ask annoying people to shut up. 'Cause asking religious types to please shut up is the only proposal I have made here. **

OK, so the religious types refuse to shut up, and instead decide to continue exercising their First Amendment rights. What’s your next move? What can you do about it, within the law?

[beajerry]

OK, so the religious types refuse to shut up, and instead decide to continue exercising their First Amendment rights. What’s your next move? What can you do about it, within the law? **

Tell them to stay away from the schools and other governmental institutions. If they refuse, get a court order.

But why should that be such a problem? Why do they throw a fit when their 10 Commandment or Koran engravings are removed from such places? What do they not ‘get’ about keeping their religion to their churches and homes, and, OK, public gathering places, including sigh television?

[capacitor]

Degrance, I see your Veggie tales and raise you one “Land Before Time”.

[DeaganTheWolf]

*Originally posted by bordelond *
**This is exceedingly rare to my experience, but there are some cases of this, to be sure. At least the (federal) law is on your side in these case – it is unlawful to discriminate on the basis of religion. **

Obviously you do not live in the southern united states. I’ve lived in serveral cities in the South when I was attending University. I cannot remember the number of times I was harrassed for going into the “Devil’s Shop” to procure some incense. As I’ve posted before, I’m a Shintoist, I was trying to excersise my freedom of religion. I was accosted verbally (many times) and twice physically. I needed the above item for my prayers yet I was harrassed and on a few occasions prevented from my excersise of religion.

Christianity happens to be the dominant religion here in the US. As others have posted, if you are a Christian you don’t notice, you’re already one of the club. If you aren’t and have no desire to be one the amount of harrassment and degredation you recieve in the South is staggering.

In Jacksonville, Florida for example The First Baptist church has all the members of the City council on it. If you weren’t a member, you didn’t get voted onto the council. If you weren’t a member you had to fight for your permits and pay every fee they could come up with. If you WERE a member those permits just flowed and the fees disappeared.

[HomerIU]

I have still yet to see anyone mention what it is in public that is religous that they object to. There is one article about Christmas decorations and the Ten Commandments. Yeah, OK, the Ten Commandments should not be in courthouses and that judge is stupid. And you can argue that government institutions should not be putting up Christmas displays. Beyond that, I don’t see what the argument is about here. The title of the thread is “Remove religion from everything public”. Courthouses and government buildings are not “everything public”. What else is it that is you are objecting to? What is it on TV you object to? To me this argument is as ridiculous as the religous zealots that don’t like Harry Potter because witchcraft is evil.

          As for being harrassed for buying incense, that has nothing to do with any sort of public display of religion.  That is a small percentage of idiotic fundamentalists that are harassing people.  There are already laws against harassment on the books.  

      "...if you are a Christian and don't notice, you're already one of them club."  This sort of circular and accusatory reasoning is infuriating.  This statement is basically saying if someone doesn't agree with your particular point of view, they are a biased Christian that can simply be dismissed because they don't "understand" the problem.  In the end this is simply a quick and easy way to dismiss the opinions of anyone that doesn't agree with you.

[bordelond]

*Originally posted by DeaganTheWolf *
**Obviously you do not live in the southern united states. I’ve lived in serveral cities in the South when I was attending University. I cannot remember the number of times I was harrassed for going into the “Devil’s Shop” to procure some incense. As I’ve posted before, I’m a Shintoist, I was trying to excersise my freedom of religion. I was accosted verbally (many times) and twice physically. I needed the above item for my prayers yet I was harrassed and on a few occasions prevented from my excersise of religion. **

Why do you make assumptions and generalizations? I’ve lived all my life in the Southern United States – born, raised, and lived most all of my adult life in New Orleans, attended college in Baton Rouge, LA, and currently work and live in central Mississippi. I’ve never lived anywhere else but the South.

I have to admit, though, that New Orleans – aka “Sin City” – is not exactly Fundie Central. I know you could practice Shinto there while nary raising an eyebrow.

I want to take great care not to minimize your abject experiences with bigotted individuals, who unfortunately come in many colors and creeds. I would like to make a point to the Board at large, though – your experiences of abuse came at the hands of people, not at the hands of a religion. The perpetrators against you can’t even use their “Christianity” as a justification for their actions against your person, as they clearly wiped their feet on Jesus’s example in harassing you.

It would be unfortunate if those bigots represent for you the typical Christian. Because in fact, those people are about as Christian as Anton LeVay.

[TeaElle]

*Originally posted by DeaganTheWolf *
In Jacksonville, Florida for example The First Baptist church has all the members of the City council on it. If you weren’t a member, you didn’t get voted onto the council.

Just because lies like this really, really cheese me off, I took the seven minutes necessary to peruse the bios of the 19 members of the City Council of Jacksonville, Florida and found that one is a member of First Baptist Church. One. Of the other eighteen, five mentioned no church affiliation whatsoever, one has a loose affiliation with the United Methodist denomination but mentioned no particular church and the rest are divided thusly:

• 1 Methodist
• 4 Baptist
• 2 Catholic
• 1 Episcopal
• 1 Presbyterian
• 1 Church of Christ
• 1 African Methodist Episcopal
• 1 Institutional Church

Your argument might be more compelling if you didn’t resort to flat out falsehoods to try to prove your supposed victim status. This, coupled with your blatant generalizing and presumptive hypothesizing calls everything you’ve said into question.

[TeaElle]

Oh, for those curious – the bios of the Jacksonville City Council members can be found at http://www.coj.net/City+Council/City+Council+2003.htm.