I haven’t read all the posts, so my apologies in advance if I repeat any information stated above…
First, the mentioning of “G-d” on things like money and stuff like that has been determined by our highest court to be “ceremonial deism” (meaning, they will admit to a belief in A deity, but is it the Judeo-Christian one, or the Hindu ones, or whatever? no word there).
Second, my personal belief about Church And State is the following: people can believe whatever they want to believe (as long as they don’t hurt/maim/kill others for their beliefs)…as long as that belief is in the PRIVATE sector. So, you could have a cross in your front yard, or have an “Old-Testament Cleaners” (whatever that is)…for all I care, you could have employees in your store chanting Harai Krishna stuff…that’s all in the private sector.
On the public side of things, while the government cannot, and should not, prohibit anyone from practicing their faith (given the stipulations mentioned above), they should also not endorse any faith. That is why I am happy to see the court’s decision to outlaw prayer in school, and to get rid of that 10 Commandments Judge in the Bible belt. Ok, so you–the student, mayor, judge, etc.-- are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc…good for you. You can wear a cross, yarmulke, etc. all you like. I don’t care, that’s a private profession of faith, but when you use the public arena to make a loud profession saying “as a representative of this government, I wish everyone to see/say <insert religious statement/symbol here>.” That goes a bit too far. So the judge was a “good G-d fearing Christian”…good for him. Let him set up that 10 commandments monument in his yard for all I care. His yard is his private area. But he should not show preferrential treatment to any one particular faith or faiths when performing in the capacity of a government-sponsored official.
And you’re saying that we should follow your example, and prohibit these exercises of free speech. Seems to me that you’re the one who’s trying to shove your personal opinion of what’s right and wrong down other people’s throats.
Abbynormalguy, I’m with you. And I think that beajerry has refined her or his original statements somewhat.
beajerry, I am a Southerner and a Christian, but it wouldn’t bother me one bit if {i]In God We Trust* disappeared from coins, the Senate didn’t open with a prayer and the words under God are removed from the Pledge. In fact, I would prefer it that way.
I do think that the POTUS has the right to invoke God’s name if he wishes, but I do find it annoying when he does it when acting in his official capacity. I guess I can live with it. (He just needs a disclaimer that he doesn’t speak for all of us. ;))
TeaElle, nice bit of detective work. I don’t understand why people want to perpetuate stereotypes so badly that they resort to making stuff up.
Who’s “they”? Seriously – aren’t you talking about the actions of scattered individuals rather than the actions of a monolithic movement or organization?
“They” as “scattered individuals”?
Perhaps. But individuals who make much noise nonetheless.
But then I see things like most of our congressmen standing on the steps of the capital reciting the Pledge Of Allegiance, “under God” and all, right after all the brouhaha last year. They did that to show defiance that the “under God” phrase is ‘good and right’.
I swear I saw that and wasn’t dreaming.
And just think about the ‘monolithic’ fury that would erupt across the country if the Supreme Court one day said that “In God We Trust” will be removed from all money.
I admit that the Fundist extremists get most of the press (like watching a good car chase).
First off I don’t appreciate the implication that I was making things up. See if you can search back to the 1997 city council. I never said it was the current regime. There was a big to do about it at the time. It seems things have changed; and good for them.
The point about the story with the fundies was that if ANY other faith had pulled such nonsense it would have been dealt with. I have NO doubt whatsoever that those types of behaviours were simply ignored do to the very pro-christian atmosphere there. Hell, those idiots were at that shop every day they could gett off work, and there were NEVER any police present even when the owner had called and complained several times. It’s a simple case of a double standard, and I’d rather have NO religion than a double standard. Even better would be if EVERY religion had equal billing as we are supposed to under the law.
As to “circular reasoning” I don’t understand your point. When a person is a member of a dominant group it’s likely that they don’t see any harrassment or persecution of others. Take for example: I’m a white man, I don’t recieve any sort of persecution for the color of my skin. My black friend has. I’m not black so I don’t pretend to understand what he has gone through. Moreover, I don’t even recognize what he feels is racist behaviour most of the time. Why don’t I see it? I feel it’s because I’m a member of the group that’s doing the behaviour. (not that I’m racist, just white). We all have seen cases of racial discrimination go overlooked by the police and civil authorities. I’m not saying that this is on the same level, but it IS a similar situation.
I don't use that type of logic to ignore someone who disagrees with me, I use it to MAYBE make those people think on their position relevant to the issue. It can be especially hard to acknowledge a problem, when it is other members, (however misguided) of your own group that are instigating it.
I think I’m going to start a lobby group to have that “in God we trust” printed on the US money in several different languages, including Arabic. And then also change the word “God” in that pledge to be recited in all languages of this globe that have a word for God or Deity. That shall of course then also include the word “Allah”.
I have a question for those participating in this discussion in defence of all this public reference to religion in the USA:
Would my lobbying come across as an attempt to push my religion down your throat?
It is not even such a weird idea since the US has no official language and is after all sold as The Multicultural Nation of this globe.
Next goal is to making the president alternate between the different words for God in the different languages when refering to God in his public speeches.
Do you think it would sound strange if he starts saying
“Allah bless America”
or
“Vishnu bless America”
or
“Zeus bless America”
Yes, I think some of that would be strange because, as far as I know, not every culture uses the idiom “[deity] bless [entity]”, any more than people might commonly say “Buddha died on the cross for all your sins” - Belief systems may not necessarily have directly equivalent components.
See, I agree with you up to a point, on both the Christian/ non-Christian thing and the black/ white thing. But only up to a point. As a white woman, I usually don’t receive any sort of persecution for the color of my skin. (I spent my first year and a half of college being ignored by the members of one club because my skin was not dark enough. Somehow, after that people just… changed. Not sure why, but I’m glad the change happened.) I am aware that unkind things have happened to my black friends for no other reason than they are black. However, that does not make me unaware of the nasty slurs that people say. When I hear them, I’m quick to tell people to stop, telling them that they are wrong for the slurs. Racist things happen, I’m sure. The reason I don’t usually notice is not that I ignore it. It usually doesn’t happen around me. When it does, I protest.
About the Christian thing… I am not Christian. I’ll admit that in November and December, Christmas things are ubiquitous. However, I don’t think people are shoving their ideology down my throat. It might be more regional to where ever you are, Deagan, but even though lots of people around me are Christian, I don’t take offense to people blessing me when I sneeze, or telling me about a beautiful sunset, or a breathtaking mountain ridge. I’m free to think about the handiwork of God, or just enjoy the awe of beauty shared as a person might share a favorite poem. Or, I could return well-wishes of my own. ;j
Unless people are actively and annoyingly trying to convert you (and I won’t forget that experience anytime soon - a new Born Again Christian made me her pet project when I was in fourth grade, and my mother threatened to sue her and have her fired from her job as my public school crossing-guard if she didn’t stop), I wouldn’t worry too much. You can, as that is your right. It is also your right to protest, as you have here. But as a religious minority in the United States, I don’t feel threatened in any way. People remind me of their adherence to their religion. I remind them of my adherence to mine.
People like my crossing-guard not popped up frequently in my lifetime, for which I am thankful. For the most part, in the exchange of religious well-wishes, I believe “no harm, no foul” is committed.
Well, now it’s not just an implication. You are making things up in a bad effort to make your point. The City of Jacksonville council members are elected for four year terms, and at least four of the current council members have served multiple terms and were in office in 1997. Since only one of those four is a member of the First Baptist Church, your attempt to implicate the members of said congregation in a conspiracy to run the city as a personal theocratic fiefdom is put, rather distinctly, out to to the pasture of embellishments which are not supported by the facts.
It’s a part of Christianity to share the gospel with other people. Jesus said to go to all the world and preach the gospel to everyone. We have the freedom in this country to share our faith with others and preach the gospel. It’s freedom of religion, which is why our forefathers came here. If someone tries to share Christ with you and you don’t want to hear it, tell them. I would back off and just pray for that person. Of course, I realize others might not be so quick to back off. Christians believe the Bible which teaches no one goes to heaven but through Christ so naturally we’re going to want to tell people which the Bible commands us to do. The answer isn’t to take away this freedom that was one of the main reasons our country was founded imho.
Freedom is for everyone, not just the non Christian.
Hmm I didn’t know I was required to annotate every post with footnotes, cites, and a bibliography. As to the valdity of what I posted. I’ll admit to error. At the time I was fresh out of highschool and gullible. I DID attend several meetings and a protest on the subject. It’s possible I was either Misinformed, or I’ve got the wrong set of people in mind. Hell, it was over seven years ago, I’m not going to continue to quibble over something I’ve probably remembered incorrectly. I only included it to illustrate the “Good Old boy” attitude that prevailed there at the time. No amount of snarky cites will change my mind on THAT. I lived there for nearly four years, and my experience is enough to convice me. If you were a minority or a member of a non christian religion you were viewed as a second class citizen, period. It was one of the major factors contributing to my change of location.
Yes, I KNOW that here i’m supposed to be able to back up whatever I claim. I’n the future I’ll make certain of anything circumstantial before I post. Apologies all around.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” - Eleanor Roosevelt
“People can’t walk all over you like a doormat if you don’t lay down first.” - Ann Landers
Why should I care if my congressman prays on the Capital steps?
Because that shows he/she hasn’t the sophistication to differentiate their religious beliefs from state duty. So why should I believe that any of their lawmaking decisions are not religiously motivated? Are they representing me or are the representing their church?
Missionary work is a Christian teaching?
No it is not. Jesus did not teach that. What he taught was corrupted by organized religion. (Whole 'nother thread, I know.)