Resolved: Nothing about sexual response is a choice.

Great Debates
1

I don’t think this is going to generate much debate around here, but it crossed my mind and I just wanted to check in and make sure.

I was going to say “homosexuality” isn’t a choice, but it’s more than that. NO sexual response is chosen. You can choose how you behave, absolutely. But you cannot choose what turns you on, period. And that is across the board, whether it is hot blondes in high heels, Brad Pitt, Girls stepping on cockroaches, poo, your mother, violence and mayhem or puppies. Or even children. (There, I said it. Didn’t say it was ok to do anything, so just stop it before you start.) Sexual response is completely outside our control.

I find it utterly bizarre that anyone would assert otherwise, particularly in the case of homosexuality. If there are any such persons out there, please, you gotta 'splain to me: why? Can you give a reason why anyone who is actually a heterosexual would wake up one day and say to themselves: Gee, homosexuality looks like fun! I think I will be that from now on! It used to be (insert opposite sex body parts here) that made me crazy with lust, but as of today, it’s (insert same sex body part here)! After all, gays have such an easy time in life, just ask Matthew Shepard!

And if you really do believe that, please also share with us what turns you on, and tell us why and how you can choose the complete opposite of that to be true any time you like?

(The actual trigger for this topic was thoughts about scat fetishes: who in Special Invisible Friend’s Name would wake up and CHOOSE to be turned on by poo??? Well, no one does. They are just are. And some people embrace it and roll with it, it’s just their fate, and others feel shame and horror at the things that rock their world…but in all cases, the response is what it is and cannot be changed by force of will or any other deliberate means.)

Stoid…reassuringly sex-obsessed since 1965. (Yeah, I was 7. Explains a lot.)

2

I don’t think many people outside religious fundamentalists think homosexuality is anything a person chooses. If you read what some of them say about homosexuality, it’s actually very interesting – they act as if every man, every day, has to consciously work to avoid the temptation of gay sex, that the pressure is all around you and if you have a weak moment you’ll succumb. Um, I’m pretty sure most men don’t have experiences like that. I know I certainly don’t. That would probably explain some things, like why people who are obnoxiously anti-gay keep getting caught having gay sex and doing drugs.

But I digress.

I generally agree with the OP, although I think it’s also possible to be introduced to new kinks. There are certain categories of erotica which I did not at all appreciate at first but as I looked at more – out of morbid curiosity, in all seriousness – I actually began to enjoy it quite a bit.

But yeah, some categories will always be a mystery. Like being swallowed alive, and not in that way, but being consumed by a giant monster or something. What in the world? Whatever melts your butter, I guess.

3

Oh, don’t mistake me, I think it’s always possible, even common, to learn that you respond to things you didn’t know you’d respond to, for sure. (B&D, for instance. I can’t recall anyone ever saying “Oh yes, ever since I was 6 years old I just always knew I was a bottom…”) But I don’t think one chooses it, and I don’t think one can UNdo an existing response.

4

I think that, armed with some truly heinous aversion therapy techniques*, one might be able to turn a fetish into a revulsion, and there are probably some conditioning techniques that could allow someone to install a new sexual attraction signal.

But, in the real world of real people, it’s pretty much a non-user installed package. Something you see or hear or do, or something someone else says or does or shows you triggers some neural response which triggers some other neurons which lead to pleasurable feelings, and the whole thing is then repeated whenever something similar is said or done or seen.

*We’ve all seen A Clockwork Orange, right?

5

I’m working on perfecting my treatment. Soon you will wonder why you get all hot and bothered whenever Seasons in the Sun plays on the radio!

6

[QUOTE=Stoid]

I was going to say “homosexuality” isn’t a choice, but it’s more than that. NO sexual response is chosen. You can choose how you behave, absolutely. But you cannot choose what turns you on, period. (…snip…) Sexual response is completely outside our control.

I find it utterly bizarre that anyone would assert otherwise, particularly in the case of homosexuality. If there are any such persons out there, please, you gotta 'splain to me: why? Can you give a reason why anyone who is actually a heterosexual would wake up one day and say to themselves: Gee, homosexuality looks like fun! I think I will be that from now on! It used to be (insert opposite sex body parts here) that made me crazy with lust, but as of today, it’s (insert same sex body part here)! After all, gays have such an easy time in life, just ask Matthew Shepard!

(…snip…)

(The actual trigger for this topic was thoughts about scat fetishes: who in Special Invisible Friend’s Name would wake up and CHOOSE to be turned on by poo??? Well, no one does. They are just are. And some people embrace it and roll with it, it’s just their fate, and others feel shame and horror at the things that rock their world…but in all cases, the response is what it is and cannot be changed by force of will or any other deliberate means.)

QUOTE]

I, too, tend to think that sexuality is inborn, but this particular discussion got me thinking.

To use similar logic:
“Who … would wake up and CHOOSE to be afraid of height/clowns/spiders/ …??? Well, no one does. They just are.”

However, in these cases people CAN be changed by appropriate treatment. So why is it that the guy turned on by crap can’t be changed, but the guy afraid of using a public john can?

I’m posing this as a question rather than a challenge to the original assertion.

7

As I understand it, phobias appear to generally be purely learned responses; all symptom with no deeper problem beneath them ( except, possibly, the tendency to develop them ). In other words, the fear of, say, open spaces is not a symptom of anything deeper than the fear of open spaces, so when it’s gone it’s gone. Sex preferences on the other hand appear to be pretty much hardwired from either birth or early childhood. Therefore no amount of “therapy” or even torture will do anything but add on a thin layer of surface responses on top of a much deeper and stronger built in structure; like trying to change a statue of a man into a statue of a woman by painting it.

8

Then let me be the first. Except I was 5 . . . and a top. And of course it wasn’t a choice.

9

Well, despite how much the OP feels this is a “non-controversial” topic, and how he casually mentions his opinion on this particular part, when you start applying his thoughts to pedophilia, you DO start getting arguments, especially when you start asking what it would mean for how to handle them.

Not saying he’s right or wrong, just that when you start arguing to treat pedophiles in certain ways, you do get controversy. So it’s hardly a light and happy topic, even when not discussing homosexuality.

10

But the understanding of how and why a person is the way he is seems not at all connected to how to respond to the actions of the person. Pedophilia and the things a sociopath might do are not victimless crimes, and punishing/preventing the person from hurting others is just as important if the action is inborn rather than learned.

11

I actually came in here to talk about pedophilia, which I began thinking about after watching too much Law and Order SVU. I do agree with the OP that (almost) all of our sexual tendencies are inborn, and if you happen to be turned on by young features, I don’t really think that’s a choice either. But as Voyager said, being attracted to children leaves victims if those tendencies are acted on. So in some ways, I think people who are attracted to young features should really be pitied, because they can never in good conscience act on the desires they most want to act on.

This is, of course assuming that the young features are the only thing they’re attracted to. A lot of pedophilia (I’m given to understand, please correct me if I’m off base) is based on being attracted to the power differential in the relationship (possibly something akin to rape?). I’m not sure that I’m convinced that loving power is something that’s inborn. I guess people are attracted to all sorts of things, and like serial killers who derive pleasure from killing people (NB: I’m not saying not all serial killers kill for this reason), some things must simply not be done in order for society to function in a beneficial manner. It just seems to me that unless you’re completely missing whatever allows us to feel empathy, as sociopaths do, then the desire for power (or greed or whatever) can be channeled into more healthy pursuits based on nurture.

12

Sorry for the hijack, but: why is Der Trihs listed as Guest?

Oh, and I agree with the OP. My dad always insisted that he “chose” to be heterosexual, and I never realized how ridiculous that was until one day I read some book (can’t remember the title at the moment) about a woman whose husband turned out to be gay and became infected with HIV and died of AIDS, and even though it was written from a devout Mormon perspective, she realized that it wasn’t a choice he had made, it was just the way he was. And then I thought “You know, I never chose to be heterosexual; why’d I always assume that gay people chose to be gay?”

And of course my perspective was enhanced by shortly thereafter finding out about my best friend’s struggle with being a gay Mormon.

13

I disagree that it’s immutable - I think most of our behaviours are probably at least a little malleable - does anyone really enjoy eating oysters the first time? Are they merely pretending to enjoy them on subsequent occasions?

OK, that’s food, the other thing is sex, but if our response to one is, to some extent, changeable, why not the other?

14

WAG: Subscription expired since post?

15

I’m convinced that sexual responses can be changed. I’ve experienced it myself. Things I’ve tried and moved on to appreciating very much. Things I’ve liked less and less. But I can’t think of anything that’s moved from “repulsive” or even “plainly unattractive” to “attractive” or the other way round.

16

Just in case people don’t get the reference, the Ludovico technique is the name of the conditioning methods used on Alex in A Clockwork Orange.

17

It may not be something someone consciously chooses, but would you agree that it’s mutable, especially in early life? In that way, it may be something that can be chosen for you, at least to a certain extent.

18

Yes, combined with the board’s pay-by-credit-card function going wonky for a while.

19

You should have delayed another day or two: I was about to offer to register you. :cool:

20

I cannot help that I like molesting young boys. It is a sexual proclivity not a learned abusive behaviour.

I dunno…maybe a tough sell.