Resolved: Nothing about sexual response is a choice.

Oh, I get that. I’m just wondering why it’s okay to be a hatemongering pedophilophobe. :wink: No, really, I don’t think you’re hatemongering at all, but I do wonder how and why you think pedophiles choose to be sexually aroused by children. Really? Someone sits down one day and says, “I want to be hated and prey on the innocent, even though I’m not turned on by them. I think I’ll whack off and then look at pictures of children so the sexual feelings are transfered to the image of kids and maybe in a few weeks the sight of a kid will make my soldier salute.” Really? That doesn’t seem likely to me.

Now I do think that you can create a pedophilia in someone else if you prey on them as a child. But that’s certainly not a choice on the future pedophile’s part, is it?

Absolutely. Factors in one’s upbringing can dispose them to certain sexual tendencies and behaviors.

I don’t think that one can be raised gay, in the sense that upbringing determines orientation. However, I do think one can be raised in an enviroment that is more (or less) conductive to a person exploring their sexuality as they mature. I do think that sexuality is innate: someone who is born heterosexual can never be anything other than heterosexual, just as someone who is born homosexual can never be anything other than that. Where this gets confusing is that I don’t think all that many people are born with strictly heterosexual or strictly homosexual desires. Most people’s sexuality falls somewhere in between the two extremes of the spectrum, but are socialized to focus only one desires in one direction. For most people, this is no problem, as any socially unacceptable desires can be routed towards the end of the spectrum that society approves of. However, as social acceptance towards homosexuality increases, more and more people who would otherwise have stayed closeted and in denial of their homosexual desires feel free to act on these desires. In this respect, people can be “raised gay,” in that their home enviroment did not stigmatize homosexuality, and so they never internalized any of the taboos on that subject.

I think this same reasoning can be applied to the question of pedophilia. I don’t think pedophilia is a learned behavior: one is either born with a disposition that finds children sexually attractive, or one is not. I suspect that a substantial percentage of the pedophile population has succesfully and completely sublimated this desire, and never act on or admit to desires in this direction. The exceptions are those for whom this orientation is so complete that they cannot sublimate it, and those for whom the pedophilia taboo was never succesfully imprinted, usually because the person in question was a victim of sexual abuse themselves. In other words, pedophilia is not a learned behavior: molestation is a learned behavior.

As a footnote, I want to make clear that my first paragraph is not intended as an endorsement of the “Everyone is really bisexual,” meme that is chiefly popular among bisexuals. I believe bisexuality to be a more complicated concept than simply being willing to have sex with someone of either gender, and should properly be narrowed to people who are capable of and interested in forming romantic attachements to people of either gender. A nominally heterosexual man who doesn’t mind visiting a glory hole in the mens room when he’s particularly hard up for sex is not a bisexual in any meaningful sense of the word.

How do you account for homosexuality in the first place then? How to you account for homosexual children growing up in heterosexual households, with nothing but heterosexual friends? How do you account for absolutely no statistical proof that homosexual couples who adopt raise a disproportiante amount of homosexual children? Victorian England was a repressed culture if ever there was one, I doubt Oscar Wilde went to drag shows as a child. The Greeks had institutionized homosexuality ingrained in their culture yet reproduced quite nicely. If homosexuality is dependent on a specific environment why doesn’t it produce specific results?

Believing that one can be raised gay (or a pedophile) does not necessarily mean that it is the only method. It may be that there are dozens of causes of homosexuality, the way there are dozens of causes of stomach pain or shortness of breath.

Ick, that makes it sound like I think homosexuality is an illness, and that’s not right. I just mean it might be a “symptom” with many causes in different people: maybe some people are biologically gay and some gay because of an experience as a child and some gay because they are raised in more liberal, accepting households and test the waters that others shy away from. There might not be one single etiology for all homosexuals everywhere.

Good point. The rest of your post echoes my own thoughts, I just thought I’d throw an idea out at you guys. Like most of whats worth debating it isn’t black OR white, nature OR nurture but a mix of both to a degree thats open to interpretation. I got started on this only because the OP was all 100% nature.

I wonder how often human sexuality is repressed due to social pressure. Maybe that explains why there are so many grumpy assholes in traffic and in checkout lines.

Repressed sexuality, however, is adjusted behavior which is out-of-sync with one’s sexual desires. Oddly enough, we want some folks to be repressed, as being a grumpy bastard is better than being a pervert* on a rampage. If someone has sexual urges which could harm others if acted upon, then by all means, repress away. Everyone else may do as they please, as long as it doesn’t impose on anyone else’s freedoms, or damage their property for that matter.

*I’m using “pervert” as an all-encompassing term primarily meaning rapists and child molesters. We can toss beastiality into that as well, considering there are consent issues.

Also, that it’s possible to raise somebody gay doesn’t mean there are thousands of people who know how to do it.

I totally disagree with the OP. I’ll accept that (most) homosexuality isn’t a choice, but I am convinced that many, probably most, sexual responses are a choice.

Perhaps I should say they are as much a choice as anything else in this world. I am assuming here that we can ignore the purely deterministic position, the idea that everything you are and do is pre-ordained at birth due to your genes and the environment that you can not control. But if we assume that humans do in fact have free will then sexual repsonses can indeed by a matter of choice.

Not getting into details here, but I was once with a girl who had a penchant for an activity that I don’t find in the least sexually arousing. I wasn’t revolted by it, I simply had no sexual response whatsoever. I thought of it the way I thought about, say, answering a telephone. Not pleasurable, not tittilating, not onerous, totally neutral. But being a considerate guy I took part in the activity, helped along by a dose of fantasy as required to keep things working. No problems there, but over time I developed a sexual reposnse to the activity. I assume because it was always associated with sexual arousal the activity itself started to become sexually arousing.

Now this might seem like I’m arguing against my own position, after all I didn’t choose to develop the sexual response, but in any meaningful sense that is exactly what I did. Through the use of association with real and fantasy sexual activity I trained my body/mind to become and stay aroused by the activity. I wanted to have a sexual reposnse to this activity and after many months I developed a sexual response. Having this particlular response has never been problem and never could be, so I don’t view it in a negative manner. It certainly isn’t a fetish in any meaningful sense of the word.

But the fact remains that I chose to develop this sexual response. I wanted to develop it, I trained my mind to devlop it and I got it. I certainly wouldn’t have developed it if I hadn’t made a deliberate effort to develo and maintain sexual arousal when subjected to that activity. To me this response is absolutely no different to the response I a batter might have to seeing certain pitch or the reposnse a good driver has to their car starting to skid. In all cases the response itself is automatic, but it has been developed thorugh a great deal of mental and physical training. In all cases the response itself exists because someone chose to develop it, even if it is now an automatic response.

I believe that I could, if I chose, develop a sexual response to almost anything that wasn’t actually unpleasant by using the same technique.

Which brings me back to why I will only say that most homosexuality is innate. I personally find the thought of homosexuality repellant, but have no doubt that a heterosexual who didn’t feel that way could very easily choose to develop homosexual reposnses. Of course they wouldn’t be homosexual, presumably they would be bisexual, but the homosexual response would be a chosen thing. I even believe that it would be possible to develop such a response without deliberately making the choice simply by engaging in homosexual activities, IO the reposnse may not have been deliberately chosen but resulted from choosing to engage in the activity.

How far this could go I honestly don’t know. Is it possible that masturbating to bisexual porn can generate homsecual responses? Could a homosexual engaging in threesomes with a bisexual partner develop heterosexual responses? Seems entirely plausible.

Anyway that’s my two cents. I think that making a claim that nobody ever chooses a sexual resposnse is ignoring just how much of human sexuality resides in the brain. People may not choose whether they are primarily bisexual or homosexual but I know they can choose to respond sexually to certian stimuli and I believe it is at least concievable they can choose to develop heterosexual responses if they are congenitally homosexual (or vice versa) and thus choose to be bisexual.

I totally agree. Given that we can acquire and modify responses to everything else (at least a bit, often a lot), it’s absurd to hold sexuality as a complete and utter exception.

But then how do you explain it when the thing that turns you on is something that you experienced?

I was thinking about this the other day, so this topic came at just the right time. When I was in high school, I had a mad crush on my neighbor. This girl had a penchant for wearing “wife beater” shirts (and she looked good doing it). I started thinking about this because just the other day I caught myself unconsciously staring at a woman wearing a wife beater shirt.

How can something like that be inborn?

And please excuse my use of the phrase “wife beater shirt,” but I can’t think of any word that would more easily describe this particular type of shirt.

Blake, thank you for a great post that explained much more successfully what I’ve been struggling to say.

On the flip side, do you think you could successfully extinguish a sexual arousal response to a stimulus you already find sexually arousing? Could you do it without turning it into a revulsion or strong negative? Could you make yourself feel “neutral” about something that gets you hot now? That’s the part I’m not sure about. I can think of conditioning techniques to, say, make you feel nauseous or feel a headache, but I can’t figure out how one would learn to feel neutral in real life.

In unreal life, of course, people seem to figure it out at clothing optional festivals, which fascinates me. But the sheer saturation of regularly sexual stimulus in a non-sexual situation seems to sort of numb everyone’s sexual response temporarily. As it turns out, the sight of bare breasts doesn’t give most men an erection, although the sight of bare breasts in a sexual situation still does. A naked chick you’ve been talking to all day without embarrassment or acute sexual stimulation may suddenly start turning you on when she’s alone in your tent at night.

They’re properly called A-shirts, but hardly anyone outside the screenprinting industry seems to know it. “Sleeveless men’s underwear shirt” is effective communication but clunky. “Dago-T” is what we called them as kids, and I was horrified at about 26 years old when I understood what that meant (it’s a racial slur referring to Italians, apparently.)

Blake, you make some compelling arguments, but I think there’s a difference between who turns you on, and what turns you on. I think someone can become interested in, say, bondage (to pick a kink at random) through practice and repeated exposure. If you’ve got a sexy girlfriend, and your sexy girlfriend likes to tie you up while you have sex, pretty soon you’ll develop a connection between “being tied up” and “sexy.” You’ve created a positive sexual response through association with an established attraction. But the evidence is pretty clear that there are basic sexual responses that are immutable, kindly provided to us by the kind, caring, and open-minded folks in the ex-gay movement, who have spent years and considerable money trying to cure gays, with a staggeringly high rate of failure. Something like a 97% recidivism rate, IIRC. And this is with a sample of people that are highly motivated to alter their own sexuality, and who have generally spent most of their lives trying. If anyone could alter their basic sexuality, it would be these folks. And they can’t do it. If they can’t do it, I suspect that no one can do it.

It seems that there are multiple levels of sexual response. There’s a basal layer that’s immutable: “I like girls!” for example. There’s a layer on top of this which is learned behavior through association with particular expressions of the basal layer. Justin_Bailey’s “women in wifebeaters” example falls into this second layer: the “I like girls!” foundation came into play when he saw a particularly attractive girl in that shirt, and it created an association for him between “sexy girl” and “wifebeater shirt.” But that association didn’t alter the foundation of his sexuality. He does not (I presume) find men in wifebeaters to be particularly sexy, nor (I again presume) does he find women he would normally find unattractive suddenly sexy because they’re wearing that style of shirt. The basic desire is immutable: the way that desire expresses itself, is.

You are confusing choice with innate, and I am not making that assertion at all. Certainly our sexual response changes as a result of our experiences, that is not choosing.

In what way did I not choose my sexual reposnse. I didn’t have any sexual response to an event. I wanted to have one, I tried very hard and eventually I developed one. In what way isn’t that a choice? To put it in context, perhaps you could explain how I chose to pass calculus through effort and study, yet I didn’t choose to develop a sexual reposnse.

I don’t know about that. I’d have to see some actual trials first. Neither of my gay friends who (voluntarily and desperately) went through “treatment” for being gay came out attracted to women, even the one who told me he’d had sex with about fifty women in an attempt to “cure” himself.

Marvin Minsky in his book Society of Mind deals specifically with these issues, and the fact of the matter is that our desires and preferences even on such basic levels as sexual response are subject to change by the factor of personal choice given sufficient motivation and commitment. Examples abound to such a large degree that there isn’t really any room for debate. The statement “I am unable to change,” or “it’s not my choice, it’s the way I am,” are either self-serving copouts, or statements of personal incompetance.

I figure that if you were not your own master that mean’s that you are somebody else’s dog.

I can hardly imagine a reason why somebody who was homosexual would want to change to heterosexual, or vice versa. I see nothing wrong with either path, but to say that it’s not a matter of choice and can’t be done is just wrong.

Certainly some people do it. Some folks in prison embrace homosexuality within that context and heterosexuality without. Some girls at an all girls school nearby embrace Lesbianism exclusively during College and heterosexuality thereafter.

People can and do change and people can and do change as a function of choice. That some people cannot or will not is not a testament as to immutability of preference but rather a statement about a failure of self-knowledge, self-mastery, commitment and discipline.

I know for a fact that it’s possible to change deep-seated preferences because I have done so, as have many many others in many many contexts.

According to Minsky the mechanisms of preference are not directly within our conscious control but are a product of our inherent natures, our experiences, and our choices. Two out of the three are largely within our control.

Minsky is one of the cofounders of the MIT AI lab and arguably one of the smartest men on the planet. The proof of his concept has been demonstrated by the functioning of his robotic “insects” who demonstrate preferences based his models, and by such inventions as cochlear implants and artificial limbs. Ray Kurzweil (who knows a thing or two about AI) applied Minsky’s ideas to pattern recognition which is nothing more than a learned applied preference to train computers to recognize speech, and there are many other applications as well.

Minsky’s model works.

What the model is, is this:

What we think of as consciousness is nothing more than the interreaction of mostly autonomous thought processes (called “agents”) that interreact with each other in limited ways. Those agents however can be deliberately changed which results in a change in the gestalt they produce.

For example, if you’ve ever had a child and watched it carefully you’ll notice that it had to learn to see, and it took a lot of time and effort to do so. An infant spends a long time learning how to grasp and pick things up. Let’s examine that. When you pick something up do you actually think “contract such and such a muscle to rotate arm in such and such a way. Relax such and such muscle to lower arm. Extend fingers one through five. Perform feedback on tactile response to touching object… etc etc?” If you break it down into all the basic commands and functions the act of picking something up is horrendously complex. Try sometime to control a computer arm with anything approaching dexterity.

The fact of the matter is that when you decide to pick something up, you just do it. You make the conscious decision but you don’t consciously bother with all the details. You have an “agent” program that runs behind your conscience thought that takes care of all the incredibly complex details without “you” having to.

Once such an agent is in place it tends to stay in place even if it’s not super efficient simply because the effort to retrain yourself and create a superior program to replace the inneficient agent is much more effort than the inneficiency that it creates.

But it can be done. Magicians do it all the time. They retrain themselves and create new agents through painstaking work to allow them to perform different functions than one will commonly develop. Athletes and musicians do it.

“Naturally gifted athletes” are rarely that. A study by the author of Freakonomics examined elite soccer players and found that a disproportionate number of them were born in either November or December. Why would this be? It turns out that if you were born in November or December your typically get to be the oldest kid in your group in the youth soccer leagues which are structured by age groups. Having an extra year of experience and physical development, say, being a six year old competing in a five and under soccer league is a huge advantage. As the star soccer player you get the most attention and training and come to think of yourself as gifted, or the best. And, you become so.

Bulimics and anorexics connect their food preferences (which is about as basic as you can get) to matters of personal self-esteem and control, and are able to overpower and short circuit even the most basic and seemingly immutable function to feed themselves. With great effort they can change back and reprogram their desires to coincide with healthier choices.

People who become vegetarians may train themselves or become so committed to vegetarianism that the very idea of eating meat is repugnant may cause a physical gag reflex.

If I tell you to take a deep breath and hold it, chances are you won’t be able to make a minute and a half. However, if I were to seal your nose and mouth so that you couldn’t breathe you would struggle for 3 or four minutes. You have an agent that is programmed to make you very alarmed if you go for a short period without breathing. You have an agent that interprets the buildup as carbon dioxide in your lungs as distress and urges you to make the conscious choice to breathe by producing a pain response.

However, if you practice holding your breath you can retrain this agent to sound its alarm later and less shrilly allowing you to hold your breath much longer. You can do this in a matter of hours, doubling or more the time you can hold your breath. Nothing physiological has occured, you have simply retrained yourself in terms of the level of pain and distress you feel.

To quit smoking I basically retrained myself over time to respond and think about cigarettes differently than I had been. My desire to smoke seemed innate at the time I smoked, my repugnance to smoking seems innate now.

What you may feel changes all the time. Bite a nipple during sexual arousal and what may have been painful and discomforting in one context is pleasurable in another.

I’ve found that to physically run 50 or 100 miles in an ultramarathon requires much more mental conditioning than physical. You have to literally retrain the way you feel and respond to physical stimuli. In this respect a level of discomfort and fatigue that would be overpowering to another person is perceftly tolerable to me, not because I’m better or different, I’ve just gone to the effort to adapt myself in this fashion.

If I lived in a society where everybody was gay, I’m sure I would be gay too. I don’t so I’m not.

Who I am and what I like is a choice.

Certainly when you consider the extreme to which a bulimic or an anorexic is able to recondition such basic and forceful instincts as the ones to eat it would seem reasonable to concede that something as mutable and subjective as sexual response is similarly malleable. It’s simply unreasonable to think otherwise.

I really enjoy my long distance running because the act of will and self-analysis necessary teaches you a lot about yourself. Robert Twigger in his book Angry White Pajamas articulates it quite well. Robert is a nerdy englishman, a poet laureate teaching English in Japan. One day, for no real reason other than that he always had the childhood dream to be a badass, he manages to get himself enrolled in the toughest most difficult, most brutal, most demanding martial arts course in the world: The Aikido training for the Tokyo Riot Police. Only a very small part of the training is on technique. The vast majority of that training is simply extreme self-inflicted abuse. It seems pointless at first, but he sticks it out, and one winter morning while standing naked in a freezing waterfall he understands why it is this way. He is retraining the way his mind and body interract, and, he has an epiphany: “Your body is nothing more than a pressurized bag of crap, and once you really understand that you can make it do or feel anything you want it to.”

Ultra-running leads me to the same conclusion. I don’t really feel the pain and discomfort and fatigue the way I did before. They are simply data and I am able to process them and interpret them and I am able to chose to run and feel pleasure for having done so.

So, no.

Your preferences, even ones that seem innate are subject to change by your conscious.

I don’t know, in large part because I can’t imagine ever being motivated to do so. Having said that I know that I can control sexual response to the degree of being able to quash an erection in inappropriate circumstances. That is achieved usually by simply not focussing on whatever is causing the reaction. So while the stimulus is still (presumably) arousing the response itself can be overidden by conscious brain centres.

In that respect extinguishing a sexual repsonse is no different to extinguishing a desire to just take something you like. The desire remains but you don’t act on that desire. So I would say that, to some degree at least, people are capable of extinguishing sexual desires to the same degree that alcoholics are capable of extinguishing a desire for alcohol. The desire never entirely vanishes but I;m sure it would become much less if you practiced control of the desire to the point where it produces no physical response and conversely it will become stronger if it is constantly rewarded…

I agree, but only to a point. As I said before, I think it is perfectly pausible that at least some people of either orientation could become bisexual as a result of bisexual activity. IOW they may have started out exclusively turned on by men but through association I can’t see any reason why they couldn’t become turned on by women. Not everyone to be sure, but some certainly.

The flaw with this reasoning is that you are starting with a sample of people who can’t control their desires, whether because the desires are strong or strongly wired, they lack impulse control or whatever. We could look at the performance of programs for heroin addiction or anger management and I suspect we would get exactly the same result: 97% recidivism. That doesn’t mean that it is impossible or even particularly difficult for the majority of people to overcome heroin adddiction or anger problems. All it means is that the people who find their way into in these sorts of programs are the worst possible cases who exhausted all other avenues.

Let’s assume you are completely wrong and it is perfectly possible for most people to alter their sexual reposnse from an innate homosexual to heterosexual or vice versa. We’ve already all conceded that being homosexual is no fun for a teenager, so those people who find it easiest to alter sexual orientation will have done so by the age of 14. Those who find it harder might have managed it by the age of 20. Those who really struggle will have gotten married and finally changed their orientation at age 25. The population that finds its way into ex-gay programs are the ones who have no innate ability to alter their orientation. They are the group that have already failed with every other method and the ones that we would expect to be most likely to fail in a program.

I have no idea if the above is true, I highly doubt it, but hopefully you see the flaw in using these programs as a reference point. I have yet to see any program for any impulsive behaviour, whether drugs or alcohol or anger that doesn’t have a >50% recidivism rate. That doesn’t mean that the vast majority of humans can’t control those responses. It just means that people who enter into programs can’t control their responses. IOW people attending programs are the very people we would most expect to fail to control their impulses. They aren’t typical, they are the worst case examples. For me the fact that >95% of individuals can’t even remain celibate is highly indicative of poor impulse control. Many people of both orientations manage to remain celibate for various reasons, yet apparently >95% of the people in these programs can’t manage that for the period thay have been monitored for.

Yes, but that is because he has never chosen to associate a man or an ugly woman with a positive sexual resposnse. The initial reposnse was positive because it was innate, no dispute there. The question here is whether he could generate a positive response by choice by associating a man or an ugly woman with pleasurable sexual activity. Imagine a sitauion in which evey time a heterosexual man has a pleasant sexual experience a man was present. Do you think it is entirely impossible for that person to develop a sexual reposnse to men?

There seems to be an inherent contradiction here. He managed to achieve an erection and orgasm with many different women yet he never had any sexual response to women. What is an erection and orgasm if not a sexual response?

Having sex with fifty different women as proof of homosexuality is kind of ironic if not self-refuting.

That’s like driving your car along the top of the ocean from New York to London in order to prove that it’s not a boat.