I couldn’t agree with this more. I’m more than happy to learn about the contributions of blacks (and Hispanics, Asians, Pacific Islanders, and albino Bulgarian women) to history, culture, science, etc. But there’s no reason to set them apart and celebrate them as special because of their race/gender/whatever, unless it is relevant to the context (obviously MLK, as one example, was important in securing rights for minorities, and it is of course proper to teach about him in that context).
If they want to put up a display about or commemorate the people who built the Capitol building, great. And of course it should be pointed out that however many of them were slaves–the makeup of the group doing the construction is relevant information. But they should not be celebrated specially because they were slaves.
And, I just have to point out, slavery ended 135 years ago…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Satan *
**MrWhipple:
I would like a citation as to what groups of people are seeking “special” rights, as you assert. **
Actually Satan I can bring up something from personal experience. My father was the mayor of a small town in Kansas, he went to speak at a AME church that was celebrating it’s 100th anniversary. His speech was congratulatory and thanked the congregation for their contributions to our community.
The only other non-congregational speaker was a person from the NAACP who said, “White people ask me if we’ll be satisfied when we have the same things that white people do. I tell them we will only be satisfied when we have taken what the white people already have!”
I think that pretty much is asking for more than equal rights… it’s asking for more rights.
Kevin
I will stop taling about slavery
–when the Jewish community stop talking about the Holocaust,
–when the Irish community stop talking about the troubles,
–when the Albanianians stop talking about the Ottoman Massacre,
–when the Native americans stops talking about the way the land was taken away from them,
–when the Muslim community stops talking about he plight of the Palestinians
–when there is justice that address these and other wrongs once and for all.
Black Americans were promised 40 acres and a mule. We were promised that the prosperous communities that we developed would not be destroyed by mobs, Klansmen or government corruption. We were promised equal rights that we didn't earn but that are inalienable to us from being born or becoming Americans. We were betrayted in each of these counts.
The fight is not over. We have to continue to fight for the rights of citizenship that is being enjoyed by others. We have to struggle because there are no built-in privileges for us just for being born what we are. There is still injustice in the court system. There is still economic imbalance. There is still miseducation that is being passed of as adequate for us. Worse yet, there are still those who think that the fight is futile, and there is no hope. Attaing and preserving the rights and responsibilities of citizenship never stops. When we stop struggling, is when america ceases to exist.
I asked for what “groups” of people were asking for more tights. You bring a quote from one person. Frankly, I can find one person who thinks almost anything - probably on this board alone. But that is not what I asked for.
Show me a contemporary official NAACP document that shows that the organization (also known as a group) wants more rights than any other groups and you have a point. One guy making a speech - and for all I know that quote is out of context anyway - is not sufficient evidence.
As I said, I have never heard of a minority group which was claiming for special rights - they want to be treated equally, not better.
Yer pal,
Satan
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two months, four weeks, 2 hours, 59 minutes and 41 seconds.
3564 cigarettes not smoked, saving $445.62.
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Yes, thank you. Stupid keyboard… why’d they put the 3 right next to the 4? It’s stupid! I mean, the A isn’t right next to the B, is it? Grr…
Every single black person in the country has been betrayed? There aren’t any black people who are able to buy land, ride buses, or vote? Gee, that’s funny… all the black people I see doing all that stuff must really be white people in disguise then, huh? Makes perfect sense.
Satan You said:
MrWhipple:
I would like a citation as to what groups of people are seeking “special” rights, as you assert. I can buy people wanting EQUAL rights (which is not afforded to some groups even to this day, let alone in our history), but I don’t hear about people wanting SPECIAL rights
I have a buddy who is a Korean/American. He is also in Real Estate. We were talking about going in to business together. He pointed out it is much easier for him to get government contracts than it would be for me since he is a minority.
I couldn’t agree more, BratMan, but the problem is that there are people who have a vested interest in fighting rather than solving anything. Take the NAACP–without racial controversy, it goes down the drain. No more raising money, no more press releases, no more marches, no more power. (And this is true on the other side of the spectrum, too–the Klan would have the same problem.) Thus what you describe will not happen–the rank-and-file might go along, but the leadership won’t…because otherwise the leadership would have to go find work.
(I would contend this is true of any advocacy group on either side of a long-standing controversy–no matter how sincere they are in their beliefs, they needthe controversy, and would resist anything that actually put an end to it. Call me cynical, if you like.)
Statements like these capacitor made seem indicative of what I perceive to be the heart of the problems in this thread. Nobody seems to be able to agree with how we group ourselves or one another temporally. When a victimized (and I do agree that historically and on some levels today blacks have been victimized) group says things like “We were…” they are claiming the injustices done to their ancestors as their own. The implicit corollary to suffering the ills done to one’s ancestors is that it is that the descendants of the perpetrators are guilty in the same manner. Both arguments are patently ridiculous on their face.
Racism exists. It is here today. Insofar as white men perpetrate racism today, they are assuredly guilty. They are not guilty of any wrongs done by their forebears, and no individual person is to be condemned for actions perpetrated by a group of which he is an involuntary member. Black men are owed no reparations for the wrongs done their grandsires. They are owed reparations for the wrongs committed in this day and age, and ought to have equal opportunity afforded him at all turns.
Simply put, there is no way of undoing the past. It should not be ignored, but neither should it be used as a weapon in the present. Those who use past injustice as a guilt-stick not only increase resentment and widen the already existing gaps, but they are concentrating on the wrong problems, since they are by definition, insoluble. While impassioned rhetoric about past injustice may be one key to winning the hearts of one’s own group, it is also the quickest way to turn off the attention, or at least the sympathetic attention, of the other.
They could put up a plaque right now. Apparantly what they want to to is create a task force to examine the history of the African American experience building the capital. This is something the congressman can contact their state colleges, or colleges in D.C., to look into. I'm sure there are plenty that would jump at the opportunity.
There are still Jews alive who suffered during the Holocaust and lived in concentration camps, which was an effort to erase a group of people from the face of the Earth, not just to use them as forced labor.
I fail to see how the Irish, Albanians, and Muslims have any impact whatsoever on equality for minorities in America. I’m not even all that up-to-date with their complaints, and if these are ongoing problems than it really doesn’t apply since slavery has been abolished and steps have since been taken to give equality to blacks.
Blacks, once slavery was abolished, weren’t pushed aside and forced to live on poorly supplied reservations, they were given a shot (eventually) at equality with whites. As for their current situation, I feel the same way. Whites wronged the Native Americans since we got here and continued to wrong them for hundreds of years. It was wrong. Sorry about all that, but we’re not giving the land back, get used to it.
There will always be small-minded racist nimrods out there, that’s unavoidable as father passes down his hateful thoughts to his son. But instead of fighting each other for rights, we need to work together for rights. The way things stand now, we are all Americans and we need to all stand together as Americans, not as racial groups. I know this is an impossible ideal, but if Martin Luther King Jr didn’t have a dream, we wouldn’t be where we are today.
There are still Jews alive who suffered during the Holocaust and lived in concentration camps, which was an effort to erase a group of people from the face of the Earth, not just to use them as forced labor.
I fail to see how the Irish, Albanians, and Muslims have any impact whatsoever on equality for minorities in America. I’m not even all that up-to-date with their complaints, and if these are ongoing problems than it really doesn’t apply since slavery has been abolished and steps have since been taken to give equality to blacks.
Blacks, once slavery was abolished, weren’t pushed aside and forced to live on poorly supplied reservations, they were given a shot (eventually) at equality with whites. As for their current situation, I feel the same way. Whites wronged the Native Americans since we got here and continued to wrong them for hundreds of years. It was wrong. Sorry about all that, but we’re not giving the land back, get used to it.
There will always be small-minded racist nimrods out there, that’s unavoidable as father passes down his hateful thoughts to his son. But instead of fighting each other for rights, we need to work together for rights. The way things stand now, we are all Americans and we need to all stand together as Americans, not as racial groups. I know this is an impossible ideal, but if Martin Luther King Jr didn’t have a dream, we wouldn’t be where we are today.
The example of the Korean business partner previously cited is a perfect one. The entire idea of “affirmative action” is to deny rights and privileges to the most qualified in favor of those who have been perceived as downtrodden. What we end up with is government contracts (for example) being given to those whose work is less superior and often at a greater cost.
Admittedly, most of the problem here is within federal and state governments. But many employers also suffer from inane laws that began with a sincere effort to help and ended up (at best) costing the private sector a crapload of money or (at worst) driving companies out of business.
Examples?
Laws requiring signs in Braille to be posted at ATMs. As if a blind person could use the ATM without being able to see the information on the screen. (And don’t get me started about drive-up ATMs…)
The Americans with Disabilities Act is a prime example of an out-of-control “special rights” law. Remember the UPS driver with bad eyesight? The company told him he couldn’t drive anymore, and he sued and WON under the ADA. A clear case of one person’s “rights” superceding the community’s right to have safe drivers on the road.
Laws that forbid landlords from refusing to rent to certain groups. Good idea in principle, bad in practice. A number of years ago a big case went through the federal courts – a Catholic landlord refused to rent to an unmarried applicant couple. The couple sued because their state’s housing law forbids discrimination on the basis of marital status. The non-discrimination law was used as a club to beat the landlord’s freedom of religious conscience.
“But I have been unable to find any law passed by the federal government to support this.”
Not to say that the “40 acres and a mule” thing is or isn’t true, but if a law had been passed, then the land and mules would have actually been distributed and there wouldn’t be a problem. It’s very rare for Congress to appropriate funds for something and the executive branch to refuse to spend it.
Mules I don’t know from Adam, but the Federal Government was literally giving away land in the territories under the Homestead Act of 1862, even into this century (the 20th). If there had been a bill in Congress to give ex-slaves land, it would have been seen not as expensive reparations but as one of those no-cost gestures that legislators love in any century. Even strongly anti-black Congressmen could have voted for it as a means of putting all the ex-slaves into a single territory, a stateside version of the (muddleheaded) “back to Africa” proposals earlier in the 1800s.
I have more tolerance for this because (a) it took place in the lifetime of those now living, and (b) it was such an extreme example.
I would have less tolerance for it if it took place 200 years ago.
Huh? Do you mean the Irish in America or the Irish in Northern Ireland?
Before World War I. These people should pipe down too.
Yep, a bunch of dead white people were wrong. Another case of admit it and move on. No, we’re not giving the land back.
At last, a current problem with current people suffering current injustices. This is something to work on.
Yep, many blacks were. Those who persecuted them were wrong. Those officers of the law who ignored them were wrong. Those courts who ruled against them were wrong.
See? I admit it.
Now, capacitor: When was the last time your community was destroyed by mobs or Klansmen?
What “rights of citizenship” do you not enjoy? When was the last time you had to move to the back of a bus? When was the last time you were turned away at a voting booth? Examples, please.
And who, might I ask, does have “built-in privileges”? The wealthy do, but wealth is less a factor of race and more a factor of hard work and ingenuity.
The primary, overriding factor for getting off in the courts is who you can afford to defend you. Ergo, the three white bigots who dragged that poor man to death were defended by public defenders and all got the death penality, while O. J. Simpson hired the leading attornies in the country and was aquitted. (And BTW, I believe all these people were guilty.)
“Economic imbalance.” In other words, take away the money from the people who worked hard and earned it and give it to people who are stupid and/or lazy.
I’m sorry to report that public schools suck for white people too. This will continue until people wise up and do away with the government monopoloy on education.
Unfortunately, most African-Americans seem willing to stick it out with lousy public schools rather than vote for vouchers.
Physician, heal thyself.
“The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.”
But most of the average person’s problems (be he black, white, or whatever) can be solved with hard work and a little smarts.
America is still the best country in the world in which to rise from nothing to great wealth and achievement.
And a little appreciation of that fact is all I’m asking for.
What case was this? Do you have a cite somewhere? If you are talking about Albertson’s v. Kirkingburg (a truck driver sued under the ADA since he was nearly blind in one eye and he was fired for it, although he was granted a waiver from the Federal Highway Administration and had an excellent driving recond), his claim for protection under the ADA was struck down by the courts. If you are talking about Vaughn Murphy v. UPS (where a person with hypertension was fired), the supremes ruled he didn’t have protection under the ADA either. IANAL, but the supremes seem to think the ADA only covers qualified individuals whose condition cannot be corrected by devices or medication.
RESOLVED: Slavery in the U.S. was wrong. Now get over it.
THANK YOU -THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU !!!
Just read the title – the heck with the posts. I’ve reached the state that if one more Black individual blames anything he/she/it considers offensive to him/her/it that Whites do, on slavery, then I would consider actually believing some of what the KKK and assorted other groups have been yelling about.
just a FYI - I don’t have the link, but David Horowitz wrote a good article (I think it appeared in Jewish World Review, - I’m doing this from memory) on a related topic - reparations for slavery. Basically, slavery, apologies and reparations are a nice little industry for activists to endlessly pursue from the moral high ground. No real effort to improve things is needed - just assign blame and milk that morally superior approach. It is pretty safe (today)to say slavery is evil - who is going to argue against that? Oppose the endless ranting about the evils of slavery, and you are a racist. I personally feel that we should settle these matters in chronological order. After all, the longest suffering should get relief before any one else, right? All descendants of Cain should apologize to the descendants of Abel and pay reparations (with compounded interest, of course). Work our way up from there. The Romans conquered the known (Western) world - scusi, and free pizza for everyone for life! No - everything really got screwed up by that bitch Eve in the Garden of Eden. To be fair, those people with more X chromosomes than Y chromosomes should apologize and pay up! I mean we lost Paradise because of her. Those dos equis around today should have to make life a living paradise for the X chromosome challenged. I personally think that sounds fair. What do you guys think? Hey- what about Cro-Magnon and the Neandertals? What’s the story there? All we ever hear is the obviously slanted story from the Cro-Magnon winner’s side!
