A poster, quite some time ago, stated it even much more simply. He said: ‘Every race on this planet has been enslaved by others at one time or another. The Blacks do not have the monopoly on being slaves.’
Some nationalities, like Asians, enslaved each other. The early Americans used a different form of slavery along with the common one, it was called ‘Bond Servants’. The Indians (not the American ones) used the cast system. Russians even today use the labor camps in Siberia.
DOn’t forget the coolies or even before that, the endentured servants from europe, and the labor camps in the US.
kind of hard to find some group that hasn’t suffered “man’s inhumanuity to man.”
The important thing is what we do with our freedom.
Uh, do you really want to stand by these statements without qualification? Are you really claiming that all the wealthy are hard working and all the poor are lazy and shiftless?
You then go on to imply that school vouchers would be a panacea for all educational ills and that blacks oppose them when there is no evidence, yet, that vouchers will actually work or that blacks oppose vouchers.
Regarding vouchers: Voucher-supported schools, like privately run prisons, have been tried in several locations (despite serious constitutional issues) and have, so far, a miserable record of failure. Some of the schools have failed outright; the majority of the schools have not improved the academic tests over the levels of nearby public schools.
On the other hand, in the several locations I am aware of where the voucher system was put to a vote, the black voters did vote for the system.
Placed in conjunction with your comments on poverty vs wealth, your comments appear to be driven by polemics rather than facts.
So, Tom, are you saying that ALL of Mr. Whipple’s examples have absolutely no basis in fact or accuracy, and that Capacitator’s are the shining epitome of truth?
For a more clear cut discussion of the OP, I believe that it should be split into two separate, but in reality related issues. Yes, Slavery is now officially illegal in the US, however you might want to update the definition of slavery in concern for slave wages and slave working conditions. Wasn’t there a case in CA last year where Asian or Latinas were brought to the US to sew clothes and haven’t there been stories of women brought to the US to act as prostitutes on the street? In my opinion, in this case, slavery has not been eradicated.
The second issue, racism, has been batted back and forth recently. I have been really surprised to hear some of the comments posted: I live among Blacks, some of them are my best friends [ergo I am not racist]. For Whites, racism in America today is not insidious. In real life, it operates inconspicuously, yet with grave results for people of color. Read the threads on racism in society and the death penalty.
So I agree [mostly] with the opinon expressed in the opening post. I do not agree that we should get over it because the resulting racism is not dead. We cannot sweep it under the rug of history because it still leaks out and corrupts American civil rights - racial profiling and Driving While Black is probably the easiest racist practice for us Whites to understand. At its most benign it is a violation of American civil rights and at its most heinous it is racism.
Finally, racism is also expressed on an individual level. And I would challenge you to think about your own personal behavior when it comes to people of color. Do you lock your car door when you drive thru minority areas? Do you lock your car doors if you see a young Black male approaching your car in the parking lot - he could be heading towards his own car. Do you hold your purse closer or check your wallet as you approach young Black males in the shopping mall? Do you practice the same behavior if you see a young White male? According to the crime statistics posted in the racist society thread, you are being only half safe since there is little difference in terms of crime when income level is considered. Young males are dangerous, but that’s another thread.
Let the good whining continue if it will finally provoke some folks to do some factfinding on their own. Let the good whining continue if it will finally open the eyes of those who refuse to recognize that civil rights continue to be effected by racism in America. Let the good whining continue until people will have the good sense to stop themselves before they act on racist assumptions or tell a racist joke or spout off on “those people”. I don’t care what racist thoughts may seethe in the heads of so-called “non-racists” - it’s your behavior that counts. Keep it tucked away in a faroff recess of your mind and don’t bring it out to pollute your child’s mind or violate my peaceful space.
Not at all. I did not dimiss all of MrWhipple’s assertions. I have called two specific statements into question because they appear to be far outside the “Straight Dope.” There is quite enough hedging and fudging with all the examples provided in this thread. That is par for the course when passionate people are arguing to “win” (since I don’t see anyone in this discussion looking to actually examine the issues or persuade anyone else).
Of the two remarks I cited, one has the double problem of claiming that blacks have failed to improve education by their actions when my survey says that 1) it is unclear that the action will actually attain its goal and 2) the black communities that I have watched have done exactly what MrWhipple demanded of them.
The other remark closely parallels the most frequent racist remark I have heard for over 40 years and, out of context, is demonstrably not true. I do not assume that he meant the remark in the way it appeared. I asked if he wanted to clarify it.
I, therefore, asked MrWhipple if he would care to reword his statements or provide some context or nuance so as to provide a better setting for his remarks. I doubt that anyone participating in this thread is ever going to change their opinions unless they find themselves in altered life conditions where they experience the issues of the other side. Within the context of “The Straight Dope,” whatever opinions we like to wrangle over, I would hope that we not get our facts wrong.
Fair enough, Tom, just wanted to see where you stood.
Kiffa…
I mentioned this similar thing earlier. Yes, there are several cases of this having happened. Every single one of these cases is illegal, and when discovered, they’re shut down by authorities. The case you’re referring to is not a matter of racism, as those that brought women illegally from Mexico were often from Mexico themselves… people-runners, basically. This same practice is often used to provide cheap labor for sweatshops… bring people in (from Mexico, China, etc.), then force them to work.
So is that slavery? Well, technically, yes… different than the slavery in America, though, but slavery nonetheless. Of course, it’s not CALLED slavery very often… but that’s just a case of semantics.
That’s debatable. Blacks were enslaved by whites (starting in Europe) because it was believed at the time that Africans weren’t “real people”… basically, they were cattle that only slightly resembled the “superior Europeans”. While this was only a matter of justification for the horrific deeds, it created a different type of racisim than what we have today… namely, then, it was a matter of “He’s on par with my mule or my cow”, and now it’s a matter of “Hey (insert racist slur here), get the f*** away from me, you’re different than I am!”
With that in mind, I see very little constructive value in constantly bringing up the “plight of the slaves” when seeking racial equality. I am wont to listen to arguments that say “He got arrested because he’s black” more than “Somebody I never knew was mean to somebody else I didn’t know either, but that second guy looked like I did.”
Spoofee and others…But aren’t “reverse discrimination” charges saying just that…How many times elsewhere and on this board have I heard stories of …I knew this guy that should have gotten a scholarship but this less qualified black guy got it…or this less qualified black person got this job instead of a white guy.
These charges are not usually based on all of the facts. They are based on emotions. They are based on fear, and a deeply ingrained assumption that black people ARE somehow inferior. Why would we assume that just because a black person is choosen over a white that his qualifications are not as good? Most of these stories do not tell us the facts. They are simply based on the deeply rooted belief that black people can only be achieving anything worthwhile because white people have moved over for them, or given them a handout. It certainly isn’t based on the fact that white people been subtly trained for generations to think that blacks somehow will destroy our society if allowed to participate equally.
Needs2know
For thirty years(68-98)I worked in ghetto’s of L.A.and Chicago in community relations for public utility co’s.Without exagerating,I would say I came in contact with anywhere from 250,000 to 300,000 black people during my career.So while I may lack a text book degree in sociology,I feel my real life exp. qualifies me.Race relations have not improved because minority preferences were the wrong road to take,evolving into a lack of responsibility.Without going into a lot of other examples, which mostly have to do with self-destructive attitudes,the other big problem is the intentionally mistaken attitude of equal oppurtunity always translating into equal results,when this fails to occur cries of racism are automatic.
**
Blacks were enslaved because they were easy to enslave. Zulu’s were black but you didn’t see many of them make the trip across the ocean or into the arab lands. Groups of people without strong military protection were ripe for outsiders to raid them and take them away as slaves. This happened with Native Americans, Eastern Europeans, various groups of Africans, and many others I’m sure.
That isn’t to say Europeans didn’t think they were sub-human or inferior. But they probably felt the same way about the Zulu’s and any number of other groups and didn’t manage to enslave them.
Marc
While this was only a matter of justification for the horrific deeds, it created a different type of racisim than what we have today… namely, then, it was a matter of “He’s on par with my mule or my cow”, and now it’s a matter of “Hey (insert racist slur here), get the f*** away from me, you’re different than I am!”
With that in mind, I see very little constructive value in constantly bringing up the “plight of the slaves” when seeking racial equality. I am wont to listen to arguments that say “He got arrested because he’s black” more than “Somebody I never knew was mean to somebody else I didn’t know either, but that second guy looked like I did.” **
[/QUOTE]
I don’t mean this to be racist in any way (though it’s probably humorously naive): What would be wrong with a United States of Africa? A lot of black Americans lead far from perfect lives, a huge percentage of young black males are in prison. Is there any interest among black communities in reclaiming their African heritage - becoming a civilising force among Africans who are constantly at war with one another? If there was a black American territory in Africa (full of Silicon Valleys and country clubs) black prisoners could be extradited from the U.S.A. American power would be extended over two continents. I have heard that South Africa is a paradise for black English immigrants. Do blacks Americans find it impossible to re-establish links with their pre-slave pasts?
[test]
This has already been tried. The result was the African nation of Liberia, whose capital city of Monrovia was named after President James Monroe.
South Africa isn’t a paradise for anybody these days, at least not according to what I read in the newspapers. But maybe you have better information than I do.
IIRC, most black Americans who emigrated to Africa during the 60s and 70s have since returned to America.
<test>
Black Americans are about as African as Woodrow Wilson. I have Nigerian friends and a former roommate from Ethiopia, and to a man, they all intensely dislike Black Americans who try to buddy up with them.
The culture and language are different, and my friend, Michael, whose family was murdered by the Mengistu regime,
thinks that Black Americans complain too much and don’t know real suffering and poverty.
He’s probably right: Americans as a whole complain too much and don’t know real suffering and poverty. Why, some people even think it necessary to complain about a new historical plaque being put up on a building in Washington. :rolleyes:
Don’t look at me, Kimstu. I’m all for more inclusive history. I was commenting on the idea suggested by G. Nome that Black Americans and Africans have kinship based on skin color, which is laughable from the perspective of the folks from Africa that I know. I’m all for more education on the contributions of all Americans to our country.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kimstu *
**
I think that there is a sense of nostalgia among many ethnic communities. There was a movement in the late 80’s early 90’s among the black community to increase community pride by stating that black africans were Kings and queens before the white man came and destroyed all of that. This is not odd. A lot of immigrants idealize the old world.
But the truth is that you can be a king and still eat nothing but manioc for 6 months at a time and die of food poisoning at age 26.
Nostalgia for Africa is often misplaced.
didn’t T.Roosevelt (I think) say “do what you can with what you have where you are.”
Here’s where I have a problem. If I understand the sentence, you are fighting to have privileges just for being born what you are. Huh? Unless I missed something, everyone has the same rights under the law. No one is entitled to something just because they are born a certain way.
I suspect that capacitor’s point is that they have to struggle to achieve the same “priveleges” that whites are born into–for example not being guilty of Driving While Black or being considered “suspiciously out of place” if they find themselves in a mostly white community.
I did not see him arguing that they should have priveleges for being born.