RESOLVED: Slavery in the U.S. was wrong. Now get over it.

[Dinsdale]

Perhaps we should say, “You’re welcome.”

Shooting the breeze with a friend that a.m., he mentioned that he read an article by a syndicated columnist he described as a black conservative - Walt Williams(son?).

According to my buddy, WW said American blacks should be grateful they are the descendants of slaves, because otherwise they would be dying of AIDs, starvation, or machete wielding thugs, instead of living in the greatest nation on earth.

Searching for the original article.

Allow me to give the pot a stir.

[AtomicDog]

Why do people assume that if my ancestors weren’t slaves,I wouldn’t today be living in the U.S.? Perhaps if Africans of the day were treated as immigrants instead of property, my ancestors would have entered America at Ellis Island through the Golden Door instead of via the Middle Passage in the hold of a slave ship.

[gobear]

According to my buddy, WW said American blacks should be grateful they are the descendants of slaves, because otherwise they would be dying of AIDs, starvation, or machete wielding thugs, instead of living in the greatest nation on earth.

Black Americans might be glad they were born here instead of
Ghana or Uganda, but that does not excuse the horrors visited on their ancestors. Slavery is a crime whose consequences still reverberate through our society. I suppose Jews in Europe should be happy about the Holocaust because it made it easier to get a seat on the subway with six million fewer people. :rolleyes:

[Saint_Zero]

*Originally posted by tomndebb *
**I suspect that capacitor’s point is that they have to struggle to achieve the same “priveleges” that whites are born into–for example not being guilty of Driving While Black or being considered “suspiciously out of place” if they find themselves in a mostly white community.

I did not see him arguing that they should have priveleges for being born. **

I see. It wasn’t a clear sentence to begin with to me.

under law, aren’t we all guaranteed the same rights? It’s the people that are the problem. That problem won’t go away overnight or because of more and stricter laws.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by AtomicDog *
**Why do people assume that if my ancestors weren’t slaves,I wouldn’t today be living in the U.S.? Perhaps if Africans of the day were treated as immigrants instead of property, my ancestors would have entered America at Ellis Island through the Golden Door instead of via the Middle Passage in the hold of a slave ship. **

What were the odds of that happening? I don’t think there were many boats filled with Africans after the slavery ended in the US. Which African nation built large sea going vessles and had enough people with the wealth and inclination to come to the new world?

Marc

[AtomicDog]

Originally posted by MGibson:

What were the odds of that happening? I don’t think there were many boats filled with Africans after the slavery ended in the US. Which African nation built large sea going vessles and had enough people with the wealth and inclination to come to the new world?

---

I daresay that the poor (and middle class) of Africa were no poorer than the poor of Europe and China, who seemed to have no trouble finding their way over here; and China certainly had no large seagoing vessels.

[BurnMeUp]

Let me take a moment to tell you what I resent in regards to the OP.

7/8 of my ancestry is european. And not “American colonist” European, My great grandparents came here in the 1920’s. None of whom owned slaves. The ONLY portion of my ancestry that did not come from non-slave owning europeans, is the 1/8th of me that is Chippewa Indian (and yes I say Indian and not Native American, he was here before the Europeans, but before the Europeans it wasn’t America).

Anyway, dispite my Indian heratige, I never harrass white people about stealing my land or burning my tents or smashign my maize or any such things.

But some (a very few) black people (who were also trodden upon) still treat me like I was a plantation owner.

Well some people can’t see past their past and are blind to colors.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by AtomicDog *
**
Originally posted by MGibson:

What were the odds of that happening? I don’t think there were many boats filled with Africans after the slavery ended in the US. Which African nation built large sea going vessles and had enough people with the wealth and inclination to come to the new world?

---

I daresay that the poor (and middle class) of Africa were no poorer than the poor of Europe and China, who seemed to have no trouble finding their way over here; and China certainly had no large seagoing vessels.
**

Well that’s the problem with talking about Africa. That place is so friggin huge that what applies to one area most certainly won’t apply to another. Most slaves came from sub-sahara Africa so perhaps we should just limit the conversation to that area.

I daresay that at the time of new world colonization western Europeans were far more advanced then their sub-saharan counterparts in the technology department. They had a huge infrastructure to get goods from one area to another that simply did not exist in Africa. In a large part that is because Africa’s geography worked against such things.

There was no tradation of sub-saharan Africans building ships and going out to sea. So without slavery I seriously doubt we’d have all that many black people on this side of the world.

Marc

PS: Before anyone gets the wrong idea I don’t think slavery was ok. I don’t think anyone should be grateful that slavery ever happened.

[AtomicDog]

I repeat and amplify: the Chinese also did not build ships and ply the oceans in trade, but we do have a large population of Chinese in the U.S. How did they get here?
The same way blacks should have been brought here,instead of as slaves. Someone had work that needed to be done(building railroads, working farms, general labor), brought over the Chinese to do it, and PAID them to do it.

Granted, the Chinese weren’t paid much, and the work was backbreaking, but they were paid, and when the work was done they were free to build their own lives. Given the same opportunity, Africans would gladly have come over here as free men to do honest work. The present day black population would probably be smaller, but the slave tradition wouldn’t be hanging over our heads, and neither would be the poverty tradition.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by AtomicDog *
**I repeat and amplify: the Chinese also did not build ships and ply the oceans in trade, but we do have a large population of Chinese in the U.S. How did they get here?

**

You’ll note that the Chinese did not get here until the 19th century. Conditions in the 19th century were very different then the conditions set in the 17th century. In fact I don’t think a huge group of Chinese came to the US until after the Civil War. But I admit I could be wrong about that.

**
Granted, the Chinese weren’t paid much, and the work was backbreaking, but they were paid, and when the work was done they were free to build their own lives.

**

No arguement from me. A crappy job beats being a slave any day of the week.

**
Given the same opportunity, Africans would gladly have come over here as free men to do honest work.

**

I don’t know how you can be sure about that. I don’t seem to recall any free Africans attempting to make the trip to the New World. But perhaps you are aware of some that I am not. In fact the only ones that came over were those who were sold into slavery. Probably captured members of other groups. Without slavery the population of blacks in this neck of the woods would be very low indeed.

**
The present day black population would probably be smaller, but the slave tradition wouldn’t be hanging over our heads, and neither would be the poverty tradition. **

Smaller, so you can see why people might “assume” that you wouldn’t be here. There is no slave tradition hanging over our heads. Slavery has be outlawed since the 1860’s so I think it is safe to assume the tradition has passed. I’m not so sure there still wouldn’t be a tradition of poverty. After all there are areas in this nation with traditions of poverty that have been in full swing for nearly 200 years.

Marc

[AtomicDog]

MGibson:
In your last message, you state that “There is no slave tradition hanging over our heads.” Back in the Sixties I was one of the first blacks to intergrate a high school in Charleston, South Carolina. As the only black passenger on my bus, I vividly remember one day a fellow student tell me, “If the war hadn’t happened, I’d own you.” And I didn’t dare do a damn thing about it.

I assure you that that day the slave tradition hung over MY head.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by AtomicDog *
**MGibson:
In your last message, you state that “There is no slave tradition hanging over our heads.” Back in the Sixties I was one of the first blacks to intergrate a high school in Charleston, South Carolina. As the only black passenger on my bus, I vividly remember one day a fellow student tell me, “If the war hadn’t happened, I’d own you.” And I didn’t dare do a damn thing about it.

I assure you that that day the slave tradition hung over MY head. **

Slavery as an American tradition ended during the 1860's. Since then there have been no more generations of slaves or slave owners. The tradition of slavery isn't even in living memory. However I do recognize that slavery is indeed relevant to life today. After all we had to have a past in order to arrive at the present.

 What you describe to me is a tradition of racism not slavery. And no I don't consider slavery to fall under the banner of racism. They may have been racist but that wasn't the prime motivator or reason they enslaved Africans.

Marc

[SPOOFE]

Atomic Dog…

Perhaps if Africans of the day were treated as immigrants instead of property,

You’re applying modern-day thinking to something that began centuries ago. Back in the day of slavery, Europeans et all considered Africans to be less-than-human. Your statement is roughly equivalent to saying “They should have treated horses as immigrants instead of property”.

I daresay that the poor (and middle class) of Africa were no poorer than the poor of Europe

Maybe not poorer in their own little communities, no, but if you compare the production capabilities of the African tribes (back in the 1600s or so) with the industry of Europe, you’d see that the only wealth that African tribes had to offer the rest of the world was… well… slaves. Who sold the slaves to the Europeans? Other African tribes, in exchange for guns and booze. Thank your African ancestors for enslaving your other African ancestors.

the Chinese also did not build ships and ply the oceans in trade, but we do have a large population of Chinese in the U.S. How did they get here?
The same way blacks should have been brought here,instead of as slaves.

I believe that, at the time the huge Chinese population appeared (to build the transcontinental railroad), slavery was still legal, but the practice of bringing new slaves from Africa had been discontinued (that is, current slaves were still slaves, and offspring of said slaves, etc.) Further, if I recall correctly, California didn’t permit slavery. Could that possibly explain the small number of of Chinese slaves?

As the only black passenger on my bus, I vividly remember one day a fellow student tell me, “If the war hadn’t happened, I’d own you.” And I didn’t dare do a damn thing about it.

I’m sorry you had to go through that. In my mind, that’s not as much a product of “Slavery Tradition” as it is a product of cruelty and racism. Of course, that’s just an argument of semantics on my part, so I’ll ignore it. But I think what MGibson was trying to say is that there isn’t ANYbody left that remembers slavery, there’s nobody that ever owned another person.

Slavery in America was a result of ignorance, nothing more (the belief that blacks were sub-human and inferior), while the experience you describe was probably a result of simple intolerance. Like I said, semantic nonsense, but from some points of view, there’s a strong distinction.

[hijack]

and yes I say Indian and not Native American

Actually, it’s correct to call “those-who-were-here-before-Europeans” Indians. The “Native American” moniker grew from the myth that Columbus called the people he met in the caribbean islands “Indians” because he thought he had found a route to India. The problem is… in 1492, there was no country on the planet called “India”.

[end hijack]

[pldennison]

You’re applying modern-day thinking to something that began centuries ago. Back in the day of slavery, Europeans et all considered Africans to be less-than-human. Your statement is roughly equivalent to saying “They should have treated horses as immigrants instead of property”.

Except for the fact that horses actually are horses, while Africans are not “less-than-human,” regardless of the amount of rationalization and self-justification practiced by Europeans. Wishing for something in spite of all biological evidence in order to justify one’s own despicable deeds does not make it so.

Furthermore, white Europeans and Americans in the slave trade dealt with the leaders of tribes who had conquered others. I doubt they considered them anything but human.

[Sledman]

*Originally posted by MGibson *

**
Given the same opportunity, Africans would gladly have come over here as free men to do honest work.

**

I don’t know how you can be sure about that. I don’t seem to recall any free Africans attempting to make the trip to the New World. But perhaps you are aware of some that I am not. In fact the only ones that came over were those who were sold into slavery. Probably captured members of other groups. Without slavery the population of blacks in this neck of the woods would be very low indeed.
**

Would you have come over here as a free black man? That doesn’t seem like the most logical thing to me based on the status of blacks in the US at that time and the laws regarding escaped slaves. Who’s to say someone wouldn’t have dragged the free black into slavery.

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread and some crazy assumptions. Someone( I forget who) above wrote that they live with black people and some of them are his/her friends so therefore they are not racist. That doesn’t prove squat.

It is funny how many people feel the need to claim they are not racist in this thread. Maybe that speaks to part of the problem.

I will state this, I believe most people here are not racist. I believe racism is learned from your parents and your community. I believe individuals can overcome these influences. I don’t owe anyone (except my credit cards) anything. I think asking for money(reparations)is ridiculous. Should we forget the past? Never!!!
Does the past still affect things today? If you say no you don’t know what you are talking about. Are things getting better? Yes, maybe not as fast as people want but they are getting better.

Everyone keeps going back to slavery ending 135 years ago. Fine, but Jim Crow was around in the 1960’s and I am not so sure he is dead. Just because the sign isn’t above the water fountain or in the diner window doesn’t mean the rules have changed. Jim Crow is the illegitmate son of King Cotton and the KKK so slavery still is having an effect.

[Honesty]

Suppose, I’ve held my tongue a bit too long.

I’m black and I don’t care about slavery. I believe a popular misconception is that slavery went undebated in this country. It’s a lot about pointing the finger and finding the scapegoat to take blame.

I will say, however, that being white in itself has inherent advantages. Just like Chris Rock said, “There are poor white people who wouldn’t want to be in my shoes and I’m rich!” This especially rings true from my experiences is as well. I’m eighteen years old, graduated from high school with honors, and I maintain a 3.5+ GPA in Community College. A few weeks ago, I told myself I would get a job just to get my feet wet. In Royal Oak, Michigan, there are strips of stores and businesses that had “Help Wanted” signs. My friend James, who was white and 19 decided to do the same thing as well. I filled 5 applications at five different locations, I was also refused an application in two of the stores when they proclaimed in a stutter, “We don’t need help anymore” when I ask why they had the sign still up, they claim that it was mistaken. Just two days ago for classes, I went by, the sign was still up from a month ago.

To get back to the point, I was denied for each and every one of those jobs. James on the other hand now works at the Baskin Robins. I have more experience than James, I excel academically and I’m not a slacker as he is. Its to the point where I am uncertain of my future, where being black is stigma, where my hard work seems to be in vain. Ever since I was sixteen, I’ve been trying to get jobs in predominately white areas, for two years I’ve been denied. Why do I go to white areas? Because quite simply, I tend to relate more to them. Since I am gay, which is like the ultimate taboo in black culture, I’ve been harassed and physically beat up before. I find whites to be a lot more embracing and tolerant; I don’t flaunt my sexuality either.

Quite surprisingly, I was against Affirmative Action. Only recently have I started to support it, it seems that if you aren’t a white male you have lots of hurdles to jump through. The instrinsic fault lies in what blacks and whites had to overcome to get where they are. I grew up in drug-infested neighborhood, saw people die before my eyes, I was even molested at an early age. I wasn’t privelaged to have a reasonable childhood or even a mediocre education. While schools with predominately white students had state-of-the-art technology during high school, we were using books dated from the 1960’s. I never studied philosphers, the great writers, or the great minds. In 12th grade we were still writing reports on Martin Luther King Jr. and Harriet Tubman. Even in Community College (Since I can’t afford to attend a regular University) I have to bus myself there, at the bus stop there have been more than one occasions where we drop to the ground to avoid gunfire or see a crowd of individuals violently kicking a hapless white businessman in the alley.

All in all, whites live in a better environment and receive education that is undoubtedly superior than blacks. For the most part, the struggles they have to overcome painfully pales in comparison to a black person in the same stature. The notion that everything is on the equal playing field is laughable at best. The inherent advantage for white men is so enormous that no program will ever rival its superiority.

Regards,

B. Williams

[Odesio]

**

Furthermore, white Europeans and Americans in the slave trade dealt with the leaders of tribes who had conquered others. I doubt they considered them anything but human. **

That explains the lack of genocide and general belevolence we hear about in places like Somolia. Whites don’t exactly corner the market on inhumanity to man.

Marc

[Odesio]

**
Would you have come over here as a free black man? That doesn’t seem like the most logical thing to me based on the status of blacks in the US at that time and the laws regarding escaped slaves. Who’s to say someone wouldn’t have dragged the free black into slavery.

**

That shoots down the happy slave arguement. I’ve heard some make the claim that slavery in Africa wasn’t as bad and that they would never have been sold to Europeans if they had known the conditions they were put in.
Incidently there were free blacks in the free northern states that were kidnapped and sold into slavery.

**
It is funny how many people feel the need to claim they are not racist in this thread. Maybe that speaks to part of the problem.

**

Probably. Sensitive discussion is often difficult because people have knee jerk reactions to what one may say. So people put various disclaimers in their messages.
**
[/QUOTE]

Marc

[Sledman]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
That shoots down the happy slave arguement. I’ve heard some make the claim that slavery in Africa wasn’t as bad and that they would never have been sold to Europeans if they had known the conditions they were put in.
Incidently there were free blacks in the free northern states that were kidnapped and sold into slavery.

Marc **

If you have some time on your hands and want to see some misinformation on the subject of American Slavery find the book Time On The Cross. It is probably the best example of using flawed statistics to argue that slavery wasn’t such a bad thing. Although widely discredited this book is still available so I am sure that there are people who believe it. I have it in a box somewhere at home from my History Seminar class which dealt heavily with statistcal analysis. It was one of our choices to do a book report despite its flaws or actually because of its flaws.

It would actually be a waste of your time to read because it is wrong but it is interesting to see the authors argue a point that sounds valid if you don’t look at their methods.

[pldennison]

quote:

Furthermore, white Europeans and Americans in the slave trade dealt with the leaders of tribes who had conquered others. I doubt they considered them anything but human.

That explains the lack of genocide and general belevolence we hear about in places like Somolia. Whites don’t exactly corner the market on inhumanity to man.

Well, no shit. Keen perception of the obvious there, Marc.

The larger point was that white slave traders would not have engaged in trade with black tribal leaders if they had not considered them humans, despite their rationalizing. I doubt that they made a habit, for example, of trading with dogs or horses.