Not quite.
It was calling out very aware weaponization of privilege. Those original Karens were not clueless or unaware. They knew exactly what they were doing - e.g. the Central Park Karen
MrDibble has it correct. The original use of Karen was pretty much calling out privileged, entitled and usually racist acts.
Historically, minority oppressed cultures have had special in-culture terms used to strike back at the majority oppressors. Of course they do. It would astonishing if they didn’t.
We’ve finally gotten to a point where systemic oppression by the majority culture is recognized by thoughtful people. Systemic racism is recognized. Systemic sexism is recognized. Systemic homophobia, now expanded into anti-LGBTQ, is recognized. I’d argue that oppression of non-Christians is also systemically built into American culture and not recognized. Other groups may define other systemic isms.
There’s general agreement that minority cultures cannot be ists against majority culture, which in America is white male straight Christian culture. It is not racist to point out systemic racism and accuse the majority culture of oppression, e.g. It’s a leap from there to internet invective of the “all men are rapists” sort, which is no longer an objection to systemic aspects of culture but personal rage.
Some people also insist that no pejorative applied by any member of minority culture against an individual or subgrouping of majority culture can be termed as ist. Americans love binary sorting. Things either are or aren’t, no nuance, no exceptions, no shadings, no circumstances. Nevertheless all cultures are a churning cauldron of nuances, exceptions, shadings, and circumstances. The way we’re discussing which bins to put Karen in is a fine example.
The black linguist John McWhorter has become controversial because he is a denier of the either/or sorting that America has fallen into. He of course acknowledges systemic racism but denounces the reflexive stance of accusationism. I believe he makes good points in general, but specifically where he stresses the need for nuance.
If the poster is told, “Let me see your manager.” to a use of Karen, is that attacking the poster?
Why play this what if game?
We don’t like to draw bright lines.
Just try not to be a jerk.
Context is how we try to moderate.
By the people that use karen memes.
Yeah, I know, I am the John Adams of this board. But no one else was gonna do it.
I am not asking for a total ban, just that a suggestion is not be used casually.
I know we dont ban words, but the C- word , “Bitch” N word and a few others will get a note or warning if used as a pejorative.
That’s okay, but we just had a long thread using it. That’s what prompted me to come here.
Exactly. I even had a friend once, not really racist, except that he used the N-word- BUT he said he only used it to refer to gangbangers, criminals etc. He insisted it was the best useful descriptive word.
Pro tip: he was 100% racist.
So far I’ve seen about 14 different definitions of Karen delineated in this thread. This imprecision is exactly my concern about that word. If it means, “entitled woman”- entitled in whose eyes? If it means “unreasonable woman” - What is reasonable for a woman to do? Misogynists think any sort of assertiveness or anger from a woman is unreasonable. Women internalize these prescriptive gender norms just as much as men.
The existence of “Male Karen” demonstrates how gendered this insult is, just as “white trash” is predicated on the racist idea that usually trashy people aren’t the white ones. If we have to point out that it’s a man in this instance, then we are saying that man is an exception to the female rule. Because many people believe that women are prone to entitlement and unreasonableness.
Some of them think the same thing about men. So is misogyny really the issue? Or is perceived detestable behavior in anybody the issue?
BTW: I pay no attention to anyone calling anybody a ‘Karen’. I’ve seen that people who use the term mostly direct it at someone who disagreed with them or didn’t let them cut in line or some other cause of petty anger like that, not actually behavior so detestable they should be called a name. In some circumstances it is behavior that deserves comment in some way but most people aren’t such pillars of equality and egality that they ought to criticize.
Calling public figures any name should be fine on the board though.
My point is, it’s a double standard. What’s perceived as reasonable in a man is not always perceived as reasonable in a woman. Therefore a woman is more likely to be called a Karen than a man.
But of course it’s more degrading for a man to be called a Karen, because people have a long established history of insulting men by comparing them to women. I have zero doubts whatsoever that for many people calling famous asshole men Karen, emasculation is part of the goal.
I think when a man does it then it usually is at least half the point. That’s how we treat each other.
Exactly.
Ummm, wasn’t that thread specifically about Karens?
On the other hand, if there were an exact synonym, the term wouldn’t be particularly useful. It arguably became popular because people started noticing and telling anecdotes about a particular kind of behavior (or a particular kind of person exhibiting such behavior) that there wasn’t already a good label for.
I think there are also plenty of other widely-used words that you could easily get 14 different definitions for (such as “conservative” and “liberal”).
This is called the Likability Penalty viz. people men and women tend to dislike women who display traditionally male personality traits like being direct and it works against women in (or trying to be in) management. But that is not being a Karen and I think most people know the difference. That person that starts yelling at you for what’s not their business? That’s a Karen. A person that makes unreasonable demands by any reasonable person’s criteria and are aggressive about it making threats about the poor sales’ clerk job or tells them they’re stupid? That’s a Karen. Maybe the term Karen is used against women more but that is because we tend to call male Karens assholes instead.
I’m struggling to remember any time, other then my thread, the word was actually used by anyone at the Straight Dope. I’m sure there are examples, probably, but I would bet they are not recent.
I have never used this word IRL outside of a thread about it. I don’t like hackneyed terms.
Maybe I’m a feminist because I don’t have a problem calling a woman an asshole if it’s called for.
(Though on this board, if it’s another poster, that’s only for the Pit.)
I don’t think I have ever seen someone reported as a “Karen” for something of that nature. I’m sure you’ve got links that show it being used for that purpose, though.
Yes exactly. That is my point.