The POA is not a relic of the cold war; we were reciting it in school back in the 1940s; when I learned the POA, it didn’t contain the words under God; those were added because of pressure brought about by the Knights of Columbus, against the wishes of the author of the poem. I had a hard time remembering to include them and often didn’t. Kids learn it because they have to; once it is learned, it is learned and to recite it means basically nothing to most people. I had to learn (memorize) the preamble to the Canterbury Tales and can still recite most of it and I can promise it means absolutely nothing. I don’t see why people get all worked up about the damn POA when we are basically losing two wars and need to get it together about health care. Let’s solve some serious problems before making an issue of such a minor one.
People my age learned it and recited it before we ever heard of commies; it wasn’t written as an anti-communist anthem.
Sadly, the rest of the paragraph is irrelevant; the quoted bits are true regardless of Bill’s topic du jour.
It would be fun to take a poll asking people how they would feel about schoolchildren being required by their teachers to recite a loyalty oath penned by a Socialist every morning.
Or change the “under God” line to “under Satan”. Most of the people who say it’s no big deal and no one should be offended would suddenly change their minds, I expect.
Or change it to “under Obama” for the duration of his time in office. I’d pay to see that!
I agree with those who think the pledge is creepy. The way people like the freepers tried to use the pledge against Obama was especially creepy. It’s so cult-like.
I wouldn’t give you a dirty look - I’d probably assume you had religious objections or knee problems.
I guess what I’m asking is, do those who have strong objections to the pledge of alliegience also take exception to the rest of the flag code, like rising for the national anthem and displaying the flag on the right of or above state flags (or just not wearing it as a diaper)? I think we can all agree that it shouldn’t be mandatory or punishable by law under any circumstances, but is there anything inherently wrong with a code of ettiquette towards national symbols? I’m asking out of genuine curiousity, not trying to be snarky or prove a point.
Standing with hand over heart during the national anthem strikes me as silly. Playing it at baseball games strikes me as really REALLY silly. (Playing “God Bless America” is worse.)
I once ratted out a fellow student for not saying the pledge. I still deeply regret it, but I’m *so * not that kid anymore. The teacher had the good sense to tell me to mind my own business.
To those claiming it’s just a meaningless ritual, that seems to me like a pretty good reason to drop it.
I think people who go out of the way to actively disrespect the flag are, for the most part, being jerks. If they’re trying communicate a serious message, it tends to get drowned out by “Look at me! I’m a jerk!”
I’ll stand when the national anthem is played, on a good day to respect the ideals our republic should stand for, on a bad day to fit in with the rest of the crowd. But it does kind of bug me when the announcer asks everyone to stand. I’d like it to be completely up to each person in attendance. Putting the hand over the heart to show loyalty seems a bit melodramatic and forced to me – like a silent film actor pressing the back of her hand to her forehead to indicate despair.
If you’re going to display the flag at all, I think you should display it properly. Presumably you are doing so out of love or respect, so do it right.
I stand to be polite, remain silent, and do not put my hand over my heart. I don’t make a big deal of it. But if asked, I will openly say that I will not recite the pledge.
“If the atheist doesn’t want their child to say under God, then the atheist should just have the child say under dog. That way you have the same amount of syllables and you end at the same time. And that’s what diversity is all about.” - Lewis Black
Part of me sympathizes; but part of me imagines you as a surly adolescent.
Part of living in a society is obeying societal norms and participating in societal customs and rituals, or getting dirty looks if you don’t.
Whether this is good, bad, or indifferent depends on the societal norms.
Mass conformity can be bad, even scary (Heil Hitler!); but there’s sometimes something comforting and heartwarming about a group of people all participating in a common, “we’re all in this together and part of something bigger than ourselves” ritual.
Only if you are doing so willingly. Doing so because if you don’t you’ll be punished by the teacher or beaten by the students isn’t “comforting and heartwarming”.
I don’t think we should have codes of etiquettes for objects. Recently, while placing flags in the lobby, an ex-military co-worker said that the US flag should be on the left of the state flag. I thought to myself “WTF? Who gives a shit?”
Well I am surly at times, but mostly because these kind of innocent and harmless things get inevitably elevated to the point where it bugs the shit out of me. I don’t mind observing a bit of societal norms to get along, but at a certain point, I feel that things cross the line.
Things that cross the line with me would include making political pledges to an object, saying I have to respect said object, or more mundane etiquette things that says I can’t play my Nintendo DS at the table if I’m done eating and not talking to someone, or I can’t bring it to a wedding, or shit like that. If I could be assured that these kind of voluntary common etiquette behaviors stay strictly voluntary with no social pressures to conform, then I’ll go along with it. Otherwise, ban them all
If they have no societal pressures to conform, the behaviors cease to be etiquette, and become just peculiar ideas that your aunt has about not eating with your hands or playing DS during your uncle’s funeral.
Etiquette has no laws or fines, it is just enforced by dirty looks and gossip.
An interesting aside…there is a Florida law that schoolchildren must say the Pledge unless specifically opted out by their parents. A challenge to this law was refused by the Supreme Court for this term:
So apparently you can force someone to declare a belief in a god. How very American.
The question I would ask then is why not open it up more? I don’t deny there can be benefits from such a situation, as you don’t that there can be problems. It seems to me that the best idea when - for the most part, anyway - a pledge of this kind aids an ingroup and harms an outgroup is, if there is to be one at all, to have one which includes as many people in the ingroup as possible.
There’s very much something comforting and heartwarming about it. So why not let more people in on it? Why not make that bigger thing which people are all a part of a bigger thing still? The problem is not so much what the pledge says as what it does not say; we’re all in this thing together. You are not.
I said the Pledge of Allegiance in school every day when I was a kid and swore that oath when I became a naturalized American citizen (my parents moved to the US when I was toddler). In my opinion, they’re not the same thing and the POA is more problematic.
When I became a naturalized citizen, I swore the Oath of Allegiance (text here) entirely out of my own free will, aware of its ramifications, and after going through a fair amount of time, expense, and hassle to do so. I was a grown woman, free and able to make my own decisions and there was no element of coercion or social pressure in it. I had time to think about it, knew what I was doing, and am glad I did it.
On the other hand, if I started saying the Pledge of Allegiance when I was in first grade, I would have been about four years old, unable to understand the ramifications and expected to do it because everyone else was. As I got older, I did start to understand and think about the ramifications. I never had a problem with “under god,” but pledging my allegiance to a hunk of cloth seemed rather silly, as did much of the flag code. It seemed to me we were revering a mere flag rather than the ideals behind it, so I stopped saying, “to the flag.” I pledged my allegiance directly to America and even so, it felt creepy and a bit liked forced indoctrination.
