Resolved: When Black Folks Dress Up, they do it WAY better than anyone else.

In My Humble Opinion
41

Sure! No sweat!

How anyone could ever be offended by THIS particular generalization is a mystery to me, it’s 100% positive. I’m essentially saying that if you an I both had similar outfits and got all dressed up to go to a party or church or what the hell ever, you would probably end up looking 100% better than I would, no matter how hard I try. And I might be wrong about you in particular, maybe you aren’t like the many other blacks I observe this to be true of, but that is offensive how? Because it references your race in any way whatsoever? Because I just don’t respect that point of view, frankly.

I am white, but every single close friend and lover my mother had from the time I was 6 and she separated from my father was black. ( My mom was president of the Beverly Hills chapter of the NAACP in 1963, and all of her relationships came out of that experience. ) I have had a lot of very close relationships with lots of black people throughout my life. Being raised like this taught me something very important: The color of one’s skin does NOT, in and of itself, have any direct impact on anything (except how well one ages, damn it to hell), but it is ludicrously PC to insist that there are not cultural traditions, behaviors, habits, traditions, beliefs, etc, common to many people of a given ethnicity or nationality. Not only is it PC, it’s simply not true.

I am pointing out that large numbers of black people seem to have an almost other-worldly ability to transcend the little details that bedevil people like me, for instance, and prevent me from ever managing to look, or stay looking, truly sharp. Gee, what an asshole thing to say.
:rolleyes:

(this reminds me of a conversation I had early in my relationship with my husband, who is Japanese American: I asked him if he ever felt victimized by racial or cultural stereotyping, and he said not really, because all the stereotypes about his race were pretty much positive: smart, good student, good at math, etc. the negative ones were all so dumb and so untrue for him he didn’t care: small penis, bad driver )

42

Did you miss that?

Just because it’s a positive stereotype does not make it acceptable to lump all black together. I do seriously doubt that you would make a comment about what nice clothes someone is wearing prefacing it with “you blacks.” It’s just silly. Yes, many black women and men dress up for church. So do white folks–especially here in the south.

FWIW I go to a mixed church where the clothes constantly amaze me they’re so fancy black and white alike. This is hardly pitworthy, but you might want to understand that some people don’t like to be lumped together good or bad on the basis of race. Here are two that don’t bother me one bit–blacks have darker skin than whites (although there are variations that are the exception but not the rule) and only blacks get sickle cell anemia. Other than that, it’s a wide world and we blacks vary just like you white folks do. But Stoidit does crack me up to see you bring up the “but I’m close to blacks–really I AM!” I don’t think you’re prejudiced just a tad bit rude.

And Miss Elizabeth you didn’t bother me. I think more people should wear hats and I do acknowledge that people like to be able to group things together and sometimes harmless sterotypes make that easier, but making a proclamation like Stoid did bugs me.

And Miss ELizabeth

43

I’m sorry you feel I was rude, but honestly, with all due respect for the simple fact that we all react to things differently, I still don’t see the tiniest reason why you should find it so, and I explained why in my previous post…there ARE generalizations that are entirely valid to make about all kinds of people who are grouped together under various categories, be they racial, religious, national, regional, what the hell ever. In and of itself, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Context and details are absolutely everything.

44

And one other thing, just for the record, I AM prejudiced to some degree, in some respects. I think nearly everyone is, its simply a matter of degree and self-awareness. By “prejudiced” I don’t mean hateful, suspicious, or other sorts of negative connotations. I mean merely that I have met almost no one in my life who is truly, sincerely, organically, completely free of any conscious awareness or preconceptions about other people based on many different things, race not least among them.

But exploration of that is probably something for GD one day.

45

I have to support Stoid here, both in the general, that making a race-based observation isn’t always either evil or false, and in specific, that, for whatever reason (presumably cultural, although I guess one can’t prove that it’s not genetic), dressing up WELL is something that, on average, black Americans do better than white Americans.
My anecdotal evidence: I frequently play in big Magic: The Gathering tournaments, which often take place at hotels or convention centers, where there are often other events going on in the room/hall next door. On several occasions, we’ve been next to big formal-looking events with largely black attendees, and I remember having basically exactly the same reaction that stoid is describing, which is NOT “oh, wow, black people who are dressed up! how surprising! I thought they only wore baggy pants and slutty dresses”, nor was it “wow, those black people are wearing clothes that are of a different variety than white folk would be wearing at a similar event” (well, it was a little of that), rather, it was “wow, there’s not a wrinkle or smudge in sight!”.

On at least one occasion, I remember seeing a majority-white fancy event (the ball at the midwest farm supply convention, or something), where I was shocked to see things like full-length fur coats (which NO one wears in California these days) and other VERY high-level-of-formality-and-elegance clothing, without having the same “where did all the wrinkles go?” reaction.

Who said anything about lumping all blacks together? A statement about a group can be true without it applying to every single member of the group…

“Men like sports”
“Americans like football”
“Women like to shop, and care about their clothes and shoes”
“People like alcohol”
“People like sex”

All of these are generalizations that involve lumping groups of people together. Does that make them wrong? Does that make the making of them wrong?

46

How about instead of this:

“Men like sports”
“Americans like football”
“Women like to shop, and care about their clothes and shoes”
“People like alcohol”
“People like sex”

you try:

“Blacks like sports”
“Blacks like football”
“Blacks like to shop, and care about their clothes and shoes”
“Blacks like alcohol”
“Blacks like sex.”

It makes things a tad bit different.

I don’t disagree with you MaxtheVool about compartmentalizing groups with various characteristics, but see how your statements change once you stick a race in front of it.

47

As a part-time heat-wearer, every compliment I get on my hats comes from black males.

I think white males are too concerned with being mistaken for Orthodox Jews. Hint, guys: tilt it back on your head. Religious hat wearers have that brim exactly parallel to the ground, as Og or G-d or whoever intended. But the rest of us can kick it back and enjoy.

48

My observation that black folk look better in their Sunday best than whites do comes from my years waitressing at a Bob’s Big Boy restaurant while in college. After church, when both groups would eat at Bob’s, the differences were startling. Whites would wear expensive clothing with recognizable designer labels, but the fit would be wrong, colors didn’t match between tops and bottoms, and everything would be tired and messy looking. The women’s hair would have noticeable roots, be frizzy and wild looking while the white males would look like they just rolled out of bed and threw the first acceptable outfit on that they could find.

The black patrons were a different story. First off, everyone was just basically well groomed. Every hair was in place, makeup was subdued, fingernails were well-manicured and you didn’t see any nasty toes poking out of falling apart sandals. Their clothing were brightly colored and well pressed. The hats were just beautiful. Everyone looked like they were going to be in a fashion show. The shoes were co-ordinated with the outfits, and were well maintained. What struck me the most is that everyone looked good, no matter how young, old, heavy, thin, etc. Heavy women wore similar suits/dresses as the thin women, they were just bigger but well tailored. The men wore three piece suits that were tailored as if they had come from Savile Row. You’d see pleated, cuffed trousers, blinding white shirts with a ton of starch, gold pocket watches along with french cuffs. Both sexes wore tons of gold jewellery, neat hats and made sure their accessories complemented their total look. Every child wore a stunning outfit and accessories as well.

Whew! That was a long post but just what I observed while waiting tables. Generally speaking, whites threw on expensive outfits without considering their total look, while the black patrons put a lot of time, thought and effort into presenting their best look.

49

I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood in Montgomery, Alabama. I’m not sure where this bizarre reluctance to acknowledge a true phenomenon is coming from. There’s nothing at all racist about the acknowledgement of slight cultural variations.

The OP is exactly right. The situation as she describes it is accurate…not only in the general “starched-and-pressed” particulars, but also in the tendency of dressed-up black people to wear more brightly-colored suits, hats, shoes, ties, etc. during dress-up occasions. Silk shirts, feathers, ostrich-skin boots, giant, glorious hats, purple suits, you name it. These people go all out.

I’ve seen it a million times in my parents’ front yard, at neighborhood block parties, at night clubs (one in particular, with music by ex-members of the Count Basie Orchestra,) at graduations, and in restaurants. I’ve known black people who dress entirely different on weekdays, and then become fashion plates on Sunday (or Saturday night.)

What the hell is the problem here? It happens. It’s true. It’s not racist. Get a grip, people.

50

You should have seen my sister’s wedding this past March - I’m sure there have been weddings with bigger culture clashes, but not one that I’ve been to. Imagine, if you will, a bunch of stereotypical, mostly East Coast Reform Jews (the bride’s family) partying at a reception with probably the only black family in Iowa (a bunch of relatively observant Baptists - the groom’s family).

I think the best photos were definitely of the groom’s mother and stepfather. When my sister announced her wedding color would be pink (I cringed - I was maid of honor, and trust me, I have my girly moments, but they generally don’t involve dressing up as a large bottle of Pepto-Bismol), they got very excited about dressing up for the wedding - to match each other, of course.

She wore a dress in several shades of pink with coordinating hat and shoes, and he wore…a pink suit, with tails, matching pink-and-white dress shoes, and pink socks. They looked absolutely smashing together, but well, certain members of the bride’s family just didn’t get it. (Of course, I don’t understand how some of them could have worn black to a wedding, but well, they are my family, so I will forgive them.) The pictures were quite something.

51

Umm Ogre? Show me one person who says it’s racist. I think it is generally inappropriate, not racist. However, if you’ll notice we keep narrowing down the field–we’re now down to mostly southern churchgoing blacks. This is not the plain “black’s dress better” the op used in his/her title.

Meh, your mileage may vary. I don’t doubt that you’ve seen blacks dress to the nines, I’ve seen it myself. I don’t think it’s evern really negative although I just hear a ring (and it’s probably in my head)of but when black don’t dress up… Again generalizations may be ok, but this just seem ridiculous.

52

My mistake. Then mentally change my statement to “It’s not inappropriate.” I still think you’re wrong, though.

What’s this “we?” Overgeneralizing? I can only speak for my own experience. Besides which, you should note that I did not only include churchgoing blacks.

Also, you should also be aware that “black culture” has deep roots in the South, and is still strongly influenced by folkways and customs developed here…and the issue at hand is, I believe, one of them.

53

How about this?

I just came back from Montreal. I noticed that a lot of Montrealians are youthful, slender (at least compared to Americans), and francophone. I assume that it’s because they have a shared culture, not because there is something kooky in the water. Am I being rude for expressing this observation?

I don’t know why noticing a lot of black people dress up is so much different. Yes, I know we’re comparing a race of people with residents of a city, but in the case of black people, there is such thing as a shared culture. This doesn’t mean that all black people are similar, but it does mean that individual black people tend to have something in common besides skin color.

Agree or disagree?

Drive through downtown Atlanta on Easter morning. Black men wearing purple suits and 'gators on their feet? Check. Little black girls sporting Shirly Temple press-and-curls, with big bright dresses complete with bows and frilly socks? Check. Old black women wearing pastel and fluorescent suits (shoes to match) and hats bigger than satellite dishes? Check. Babies dressed to the nines? Check.

Drive up to Buckhead on Easter morning. You’ll find white people dressed nicely, to be sure, but their look will not be a huge depature from how they look on other Sunday mornings.

On Sunday morning, which little boy–the white one or the black one–is more likely to be put into a slick suit and shiny patent leather shoes? Which one is more likely to be put into a pullover, khaki trousers, and loafers–probably the same ones he wears to school on occassion?

Hypothesis 1. Insecurity. Many black people have at least roots in poverty (if they aren’t still mired in it). When you’re poor or if you’re afraid people will think you are poor, you often try to overcompensate by putting up false appearances. A sign of insecurity, if you will. Dressing nicely is a good way to put up a front of success.

Hypothesis 2. An expression of self-esteem. Black people have historically been told how ugly and worthless they are by society. Dressing well and looking good 24/7 counteracts this, at least internally.

Hypothesis 3. Self-preservation. It’s the case of “working twice as hard to get the same level of respect”. If a white man shows up to work with a wrinkled shirt and clad in raggedy sneakers, a lot of adjectives may be thrown his way, but he may go more unnoticed than a black man who shows up dressed the same way. So dressing nicely is a way to compensate for prejudice. This may not directly explain the motivations for the vast majority of black people who dress up, but it may explain how the behavior entered the culture in the first place.

Hypothesis 4. Group cohesiveness fosters peer-pressure and fear of individuality. I believe most black people have the belief that they belong to a group–or a community–different from mainstream society. Groups tend to have uniforms. White frat boys wear baseball caps with curved bills, raggedy Abercrombie & Fitch cargo shorts, and T-shirts bought from Urban Outfitter. But broaden that group so that it includes all males 18-25 and the uniform becomes less defined. Maybe for church-going black people, the uniform is more rigid, more apparent than the uniform for church-going white people–a broader, less cohesive group. I believe this might be the case.

Finally…

Hypothesis 5. Black people dress normal. The rest of ya’ll need to spiffy up your attire. :slight_smile:

54

You’ve injected your perceived prejudice with the statement: “Gee them black people sure do clean up nice. They iron their clothes and wear clean clothes when they dress up–Wow.” Nothing like that was said or intimated.

I’m not really sure what a “mixed church” is but in many AME churches it is a part of African American cultural to dress up. It’s not just crisply tailored clothes, there is a greater degree of flamboyant style involved. There was a book and a play on the subject (Crowns). I also believe one of the primetime news magazines did a piece on the subject.

55

I think you have it right…on all counts. :wink:

56

Another Alabamian who has always noticed this dichotomy.

For a while I worked in a dry-cleaners and that was also interesting. White people would bring their conservative suits and dresses, but the black customers would dry clean almost their entire wardrobe including khakis and T-shirts. They took enormous pride and care in their clothing.

When I was growing up every fat middle aged southern man wore Guayabara Shirts both because they hang well over a big gut and they’re dressy without being cool. Now that I’m a fat middle aged southern man I went looking for one a couple of years ago and the only place I found that sold them was in a black men’s store where they were on clearance, but the other shirts that were in there were just incredible. They weren’t the cheesy faux Cuban things that I was looking for but just wonderfully colorful and embroidered and gold-buttoned items that stopped a nanometer short of of the “too flamboyant” line and remained instead in the borders of “snazzy”.

There is a popular coffee table book sold even at Wal-Marts entitled Crowns: Portraits of Black Women in Church Hats. The text, ironically, is by Michael Cunningham, the Ohio born white author most famous for The Hours.

57

Correction to the above: it is not the same Michael Cunningham, though Amazon incorrectly identifies him as such.

58

Obviously, you have never been to a benefit or museum/art opening with me.

59

You make one lucky fluke blind-bid at the Liberace Estate Sale and you drag those capes out for every occasion. If you just knew how many chinchillas and ermines and sequins had to die to make those things…

60

I’ll widen it back up again, then. New England business men, if black, often (but not always, certainly) look really sharp. I have rarely seen a white man look that good.