Rest the breast (Breast milk does not boost IQ)

In My Humble Opinion
101

I repeat my comment re us being an interesting species.

Personally, I LIKE going to the mall (like at Nordstrom’s) and seeing the women in that area, all nursing or holding a toddler who has had Too Much Mall. Better to be at home, perhaps, but at least there’s an oasis there for those who need it.

Field’s used to have a couch in most every ladie’s room, not in with the stalls, on which you could rest or nurse. Now that it’s Macy’s, I don’t know what they’ve got-and I’ll never know, since I won’t shop Macy’s…

Whynot -steal with my blessing! Lactivism: the scourge of postnatal women…

102

I had fun there, for a while, until 'ol Cynthia Mosher got on my case for my siggy (“Disposable diapering, formula feeding, vaccinating, plastic toys having, chicken nuggets feeding Mom”).

And then there was the time I told one anxious Mommy (whose kids weren’t talking much) that I thought my twins had learned a lot from Sesame Street – whoo doggies, the fur flew on that one.

And my attempts to console another guilt-ridden Mommy (who’d had to leave her toddler with Grandma for 13 minutes while she ran to the pharmacy; he cried the whole time) stirred up trouble, too. Some posters (not all of them) felt it was an act of abandoment and betrayal, and that other techniques should’ve been used. They succeeded in browbeating the Mommy into promising she’d “never do it again”, and I kind of flipped:

103

So none of these women ever, *ever * are away from their infants for a few minutes? No wonder they’re insane.

I always follow these sorts of threads with interest. Parenting is hard, and all kids (and parents) are different, and the same thing just plain doesn’t work for everyone. Yet there are always people lined up to “helpfully” tell you that you’re doing it wrong.

As another “Disposable diapering, formula feeding, vaccinating, plastic toys having, chicken nuggets feeding Mom” (with plenty of Sesame Street in the mix!), I find it very rewarding (if petty) to point to my now fifteen year old daughter, who is extraordinarily intelligent, socially skilled, artistically gifted, and an all around great kid, and say to those people “Huh. Funny how mine turned out better.” :smiley:

104

<whisper>I’d suggest removing your MDC handle from this thread - the new UA may give them grounds to ban ya should this thread come to their attention. I sure hope they don’t know about this place!</whisper>

Looks like a contrary opinion is in the original article. But it sounds pretty preliminary, and again, potentially trivial. I drank goats milk as my main milk for most of my infancy because of health problems, and I’m … wait, maybe that’s why I like to weed the lawn by hand …

My company is kind of supportive; we have 1 lactation room and since I’ve been there long enough to rate an office and I can close the door and pump there. We still have a ways to go, though.

Question about the Whole Foods boycott for carrying Mothering magazine. Do they know? Currently it is the only place in 50 miles I can get organic standard pasturized milk from. I can make do without the meat as long as Publix has Maverick but …

Then again, I’ve had to break my Nestle boycott a few times because Good Start was the easiest on my kids’ tummies for supplementation. sigh

105

You made me giggle. Getting censored by Mosher ought to be considered a huge badge of honor. She was on my case after I had the nerve to actually debate vaccines in the alleged vaccine forum. I’ve been bashed there several times for my pro-vaccine stance. I am darned proud of it.

Mynn,

I have no idea if Whole Paychecks knows about the anti-vax nonsense. I wrote them a letter about the situation (and pointed out that Mothering once ran a disgusting cover article about an HIV positive mother who refused AIDS meds for child) but I never heard back from them.

106

I am leaving MYSELF loopholes, as in, I allow myself to critize women that don’t fit in my earlier assesment. This does not include anyone who has posted in the thread so far. I will cop to “arrogant,” but personally I think “I prefer bottle” with no other reason is lax mothering.

I did for a while - but, of course, as a WAHM, I don’t fit in well there. I am interested in the perspectives there, because it balances out the materialism I see elsewhere nicely, but I take everything with a grain of salt.

As for being judgmental, one of the common riffs at MDC is the carseat problem - am I being judgmental for critisizing someone that doesn’t use a carseat? Of course, but people since that opinion is more commonplace, it is acceptable. I think it is a point to be made here. When children’s safety is at stake (and I beleive that it is here) most mothers are judgmental.

[quote=WhyNot]
It’s been an anti-busybody know-it-all shove their opinions in your face holier-than-thou zealot boobnazi with no consideration for personal choice or medical realities thread.

[quote]

Now I am a newbie here, but I thought this sort of thing was reserved for the Pit, is that correct?

107

That’s up to the Moderators to decide. There’s plenty of anti-something threads in IMHO. If you believe this one is vitriolic enough to be in the Pit, you should report it either by flagging the little red triangle in someone’s post or by sending an email to the Mods.

That is, I *think *guests can report threads. Hmmm…Tell you what, if you don’t see a little red triangle in the upper right hand of everyone’s post but yours, then let me know and I’ll report the thread on your behalf, if that’s what you wish. Myself, I think it’s borderline enough to stay in IMHO, but I am not a Moderator, so ultimately it’s not my call.

108

Does WAHM mean your kids are in daycare? Or is that WOHM? I can’t keep my acronyms straight.

109

Well, I screwed up my acronyms too- because I meant that I am a WOHM - a work outside the home, NOT a work at home mom, which is WAHM :smack:

My daughter is in daycare.
WhyNot I don’t feel the need to pit you, and I hope you don’t feel the need to pit me. I am attempting to point out that I felt your tone was straying away from the argument into personalities, which don’t belong here.

110

How kind of you to forgive us our sins. I bottle fed because I preferred it, and my daughter is healthy, happy, and nifty in every way. Let me know how yours is in fifteen years. If she’s anything less, then you’ll have to expect to be called on *your * insufficient parenting skills.

And if you equate bottlefeeding to driving with an unrestrained child, then you have to expect to be called an hysteric.

111

I agree, we can compare notes in 15 years. Of course, that assumes that we otherwise made the same parenting choices, which is in doubt here.

This argument also falls under “anecdote does not equal data.” Maybe your kid is nifty due solely to your nifty genetics, and other bottle fed kids aren’t nearly as nifty. Or maybe they are niftier, but I with my breastfeeding bias don’t spot the niftiness.

And you aren’t interested in hearing the circumstances of the theoretical unrestrained child? That is the catch, of course. What if the kid is choking and having mom hold him is keeping him calm on the way to the hospital?

And of course I can’t find the cite when I need it, but I remember a study of American infant mortality rates that showed that formula fed babies where twice as likely to die of all causes than nursed babies. Admittedly, that is only a difference of 3-4 babies out of a thousand, but I think that is comparable to the chance a baby will die due to lack of proper car restraints.

112

This is absolutely, positively not true! It is perfectly safe to be on a diet and nurse. Hell, Weight Watchers even has instructions for nursing mothers. Did you mean women starving themselves to the degree of anorexia? I’m also not sure what “really lousy diet” means, but it’s hard to imagine a diet that is so bad in composition it would make nursing unsafe.

I hope people can leave behind the guilt, and realize that sometimes the “boobnazis” at LLL and such are perhaps just trying to give them correct information so they can make an informed decision, or keep breastfeeding if they want to. For instance, it is possible that the women referred to in this thread as having “watery” milk had oversupply, which can cause the baby to get only the lowest fat milk, especially when the baby is put on scheduled or curtailed feeding. I don’t doubt that there are extremely rare, fantastical cases where truly useless milk is produced, but it’s probably a lot rarer than people being hit by lightning.

The problem with doctors is that they have practically no training in breastfeeding. I trust a doctor to tell me if an infant is not gaining well, but I don’t trust the doctor to tell me that the milk is “bad” or what is going wrong with bfing, because they often have less information than the average LLL member, never mind a leader or IBCLC.

Again, so many people seem to believe they can’t nurse if they have a certain disease, take a certain drug, or hell, even if they eat onions or broccoli! The truth is that most medications introduce less risk than weaning would. I know there are some meds that are unsafe (lithium, chemotherapy), but doctors do tend to CYA, and also to forget that weaning introduces risk, so they are inclined to call for weaning. If the doc doesn’t consult Hale’s Medications and Mother’s Milk, I would investigate further before weaning to go on medication.

Maybe breastmilk didn’t boost her immunity, or maybe she would have been worse off, even dead, without breastmilk. There is no way to tell in the individual situation. But studies across populations do show that breastmilk decreases disease and mortality. (However, yes, in developed countries, it is the difference between a tiny number of deaths and a *teeny * tiny number of deaths.)

I know “crunchy” moms can be absolute fruitloops (there are not enough :rolleyes: for MDC and *Mothering *). However, there is a certain subset of people who embrace natural childbirth and breastfeeding because the scientific evidence shows they are less risky. Maybe we’re a tiny minority, but we exist. So please don’t assume I’m an anti-vax, homeopathic, newage screwball or a nipple nazi, just because I am willing to state the facts about these subjects, and I’m passionate about getting accurate information out there.

I do think it’s each person’s decision how to approach these topics, and I haven’t got a clue about the details of their lives. That baby drinking formula at the mall could be adopted, or her mom might have psychological issues that make her a better mother feeding formula than breastfeeding. There are hundreds of possibilities.

However, please excuse me if I go grrr, just inside my own head when I hear a story that goes something like this: “The doctor said the baby would be big, so he induced me at 38 weeks. Thank goodness for the epidural, because the pit was so awful! But after hours and hours in bed, I wasn’t progressing, and the baby’s heartrate was falling, so we had to have an emergency C-section. Thank goodness the baby was healthy. She had respiratory problems, and it was hard to keep her awake or get her to latch on, but we’re just thankful she’s OK. One of the nurses offered to feed her a bottle so I could rest, and the hospital LC had six patients before me, so we just went ahead and did the bottle. It was a good thing, too, because later we found that the baby’s latch was bad, and my milk wasn’t coming in. At home, I tried feeding her every three hours, but she just never seemed satisfied - I’m sure I didn’t have enough milk for her. The doctor said she was only in the 10th percentile for weight, so we should keep supplementing. Plus, I had PPD and they wanted me to go on Zoloft, so I wound up having to wean her after a couple weeks anyway.” Inside, my head explodes, but outside, I just say, “Wow, that must have been so hard for you!”

113

naotalbah,

Do you feel the need to extend your busy body behavior into all areas of child saftey, or just lactivism? Do you feel the need to tell friends who move onto a busy street that that is dangerous? Or remind people that kids drown in those suburban ponds every year? Do you encourage them not to let their kids ride bikes and skateboard? Do you extend your concern into their diets and their television watching habits? Do you ask them if they keep guns in the house? Encourage breastfeeding Mom’s not to eat peanut butter for fear of inducing life threatening peanut allergies? Remind them not to feed their toddlers spinich smoothies due to possible e-coli contaimination? Lobby for the soccer team to wear headgear?

114

If you want to talk cites on infant and child mortality, that’s a whole 'nuther interesting argument; I’ll have to join the hunt for data & report back.

But I’m kind of stunned that a woman who’s got her baby in daycare feels free to pass judgements on other mothers for not breastfeeding.

“Oh, but I have no choice because…”
“Oh, it’s a benefit to my daughter because…”
“Oh, I was in daycare, and I turned out fine because…”
“Oh, I feel it’s essential to set an example as a career woman because…”
“Oh, I absolutely cannot stand the thought of staying at home myself because…”
“Oh, I don’t believe studies that says having Mom at home is better because…”

And of course, the only rational answer is “Yes. You are the Mother. You are the only one living your life. You are making the best choices available to you, based on your knowledge, situation and experience. Mothering isn’t accomplished in a single day, or on a single issue. Justifications aren’t necessary.”

Why would you not offer that support to other mothers?

Cranky asked about muzzling opinions — to me, it’s not so much the opinions but the judgements that should be kept in check. We’re not living each other’s lives, and we don’t truly know.

115

Depends.

busy street- I’m not going to have a conversation with someone too stupid to know this.

Helmets, television, diet - If a friend asks me, I will give them my opinon. Likewise, if someone has information on those subjects to share, I am always interested. I won’t expound on these subjects to a casual aquantance (although I would probably join a dope thread about them).

If you have an unsecured firearm in a house with kids, I will absolutely bring it up. I would seriously consider calling child protective services for that.

If there is a body of water that is not fenced, and unattended children are likely to get into it, I would talk to the property owner or city. If it is in a park where young children are unlikely to be without their parents, no, I wouldn’t have a problem with that.

Soccer teams and spinach - I don’t have enough info for me to make a decision either way. If you have good evidence that these measures will help protect kids, then I will help you with the campaign to raise awareness. So far, not seeing it.

Peanuts- I obviously was wrong on this, since I had read that early exposure was good, and my daughter has a peanut allergy. I read everything I come across on this issue, and the evidence still seems to be mixed.

116

You have some good points here. I come from the perspective that to judge is natural and human, and that I have to have a thick skin about the daycare issue, if I want to get into discussions about it. And I know that there is good evidence that having a stay at home mom is an advantage, and I try to remember to set my own guilt and defensiveness aside in those discussions. (I think I previewed and changed the post 3 times before I settled on a bare “she is in daycare”)

I try to offer that support to other mothers (obviously I haven’t been very sucessful at it here to judge by the response, but that is my goal). In real life, I try to be helpful and supportive of bottle feeding moms without bring up the subject (since it is pointless to try to proselytize once the milk is gone).

But my frustration with “rest the breast” remains. And I still don’t buy that I shouldn’t encourage breastfeeding becuase it may make some women feel guilty.

117

This is the thing I want to see with breastfeeding. If someone asks, or you are going to have a general discussion about it. That is great and wonderful. What bugs me (and I guess I don’t know if you do it or not, based on that response, expect you don’t) was the unsolicited opinions I got while pregnant or bottlefeeding. That’s rude and intrusive. There is a slight risk to not breastfeeding. Not enough of a risk that someone needs to be rude or intrusive.

To some extent, its the busy street issue. Don’t insult my intellegence to assume I haven’t heard all this and if I’m bottlefeeding, I’ve done my weighing.

(Head injuries in soccer are rare, but happen often enough that some parents lobby for headgear. The kids think its geeky however and I’m sort of on the side of “my kids wouldn’t play soccer with headgear - and I think the benefits of exercise and team sports outweigh the small risk.” The e coli thing was a weird fluke where spinich got contaminated with e coli and someone’s toddler died. Minnesota has a lot of ponds, its a sales feature of our suburban paradise and they cross lot lines making fencing impractical (and who would fence the pond - its suppose to be there in its glory!) - so they are landscape features/toddler traps.

118

I think you’ll find that every reputable cite recommends 600 calories per day over pregnancy guidelines for nursing mothers to have good quality and quantity of milk. This isn’t to say that you can’t safely lose weight while nursing - most women, in fact, lose quite a bit of weight while nursing without even trying (but this is by no means universal.) I think Weight Watchers offering reduced calorie diet plans for nursing mothers is ethically and medically dubious, but on the other hand, it’s probably still a better diet plan than most women would come up with on their own (that is, it probably still incorporates more nutrition and less empty calories).

Of more worry is the Fast Food Mama who is filling herself with empty calories and little nutrition. There’s a reason for the old wives tale “Lose a tooth with every baby.” If you don’t eat calcium (or other nutrients), your body will take if from itself and give it to the baby when it can, but things like Vitamin C are not stored in your tissues - don’t eat water soluble vitamins, and the baby won’t be getting any either.

I never said a poor diet would make nursing “unsafe”, I said that it may make formula a better nutritional choice - simply on a nutrient level, not addressing the other benefits of breastfeeding at all.

119

I don’t feel the need to pit you, either, just so’s we’re clear. I do acknowledge that my tone has gotten rather frustrated as I’ve vented, and I do apologize for letting go with both barrels. I don’t think I crossed the IMHO line, but as I said I would accept the judgement of a moderator otherwise, as I know I’ve been toeing it. There are plenty of heated posts here, though. We ain’t no MPSIMS {{{{{huggles}}}}} crew! :wink:

120

I’m a bit late in the day here, but let’s keep the snarling under control, OK?

I’ve been asked to move this to GD; I shan’t. I might have earlier. It’s leaning just a hair too much towards vitriolic now, though not enough for the Pit. There’s good discussion here too - I don’t want to inflict Pit attitudes on it.