Rest the breast (Breast milk does not boost IQ)

In My Humble Opinion
81

[QUOTE=CrankyAsAnOldMan]
Unattended and unintended both.

I want to probe this a little more, because your position surprises me. Would this just be in relation to childbirth and childrearing, or other topics, too?

What about opinions that are in support of the things you believe? Consider a hypothetical case where someone’s baby is born with a serious digestive issue and can’t process formula. But she gives the baby formula anyway, instead of the medically-prescribed nutritional substitute her doctor gave her, because she overhead me say that in developed countries, formula is safe and a perfectly acceptable way to feed an infant (which I have said, and believe is true, and would stand behind). The baby becomes seriously ill as a result. Am I culpable? Should I have watched my words? Shouldn’t I deserve the same admonishment?
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Yes, if you’ve actively lobbied her towards formula feeding without being aware of her circumstances. No, if she overhead a conversation you were having on the bus. I believe in both formula feeding and breastfeeding, btw. I just think its a decision that needs to be made by the mother in conjunction with her doctor and peditrician. Not one that complete strangers (or her mother in law, or her friends) need to comment on. Natural childbirth, medicated vaginal childbirth and c-sections all have their place, it would just be nice if women got their medical advice from medical professionals.

82

Elza B, you’re doing great. Whatever milk you can give him is, as the nurses at my hospital called it, “mama’s medicine.” Don’t think of it as if you can’t give him the nourishment he needs. Realize that you give him a precious few ounces of the best baby medicine there is, every day. Does that mean that moms who can’t even do that much breastmilk are horrible people and terrible mothers? No. It means that we all do what we can - or at least, the things you’re doing indicate that YOU are doing the best you can, and that’s good enough for me.

Again, I think it’s a GOOD thing that formula today is so well made. It’s certainly a heck of a lot better than it was 100, 40 or even 20 years ago. Some of the formula hate is undoubtedly left over from when formula really was rather crap. Same with jarred baby food - when WhyKid was a baby, it really was horrendous, overcooked, preservative-, salt-, sugar- and starch filler-laden junk. Homemade baby food really was a whole lot more nutritious. Nowadays, there’s actually good jarred baby food if that’s what you choose to use.

And I’m glad studies like this (remember, there was an OP back on page one, and it was about a formula study? :wink: ) I’m glad studies like this are done to improve formula even more. It’s still not the perfect, number one, bestest thing out there - but how many of us own the #2 rated carseat, the #15 rated crib and don’t lock our toilet lids? My problem with boobnazis isn’t that they think breastmilk is #1, because usually they’re right. My problem is that they’re intollerant of people who choose #2 in this particular area, as if it says something about them as parents as a whole. And I’m sorry, but if you’re the best milk producer in the Western world and act a crap mother in other ways, you have no moral high ground. Breastfeeding is only one of hundreds of decisions that need to be made before the first birthday - I’d rather judge a parent by the aggregate of their choices than any one choice.

83

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
eleanorrigby and fessie got it. No one should muzzle their opinions, but they should be careful in how they state them - words can have unattended consequences. And they shouldn’t “lie with statistics.” Which most of these discussions are filled with. Whether its a report on breastfeeding and IQ that doesn’t account for socioeconomic class differences (how flawed WAS that orginal study? - that’s a basic!) or saying you are much more likely to die - when your chance of dying in childbirth is still very small.

There are thee meme’s in the hippy granola subculture I float around in regarding childbirth and babies that drive me nuts - one is “breastfeeding is SO much better for the baby that if you don’t do it you’d better have a really really good reason” another is “almost no one needs a c-section” and the third is “vaccinations are bad.”
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The anti-vax garbage is why I think mothering is the worst parenting website on the internet. I will not shop at Whole Foods because they carry Mothering. The anti vax forum there is utterly disgusting. They have thread after thread filled with total morons crowing over children with measles, chicken pox and whooping cough. I lurk there sometimes and I each time I want to beat the living daylights out of the forum’s most prolific and fanatically ignorant posters. You simply will not find a group of dumber people anywhere.

The worst part is that not that they do terrible things to their own children but they expose others to terrible and potentially life threatening diseases as well. I swear they ought to be a in mental hospital for treatment for delusion or in the interest of maintaining public health.

One of my favorite aspects of this board is watching the occasional anti-vax loon wander over here and get shocked when smart posters successfully poke serious holes in their idiocy.

As for the OP, I breastfed my daughter for two years and I still laughed for a full ten minutes after reading about the study. The main advanatages to me were always the fact that after the first six weeks breastfeeding was just easier than formula plus it was cheaper. I do think there are some health advantages but from extensive reading on the subject I am not entirely sure they all that gets implied by some of the more rabid members of the La Leche League.

84

[QUOTE=LavenderBlue]

As for the OP, I breastfed my daughter for two years and I still laughed for a full ten minutes after reading about the study. The main advanatages to me were always the fact that after the first six weeks breastfeeding was just easier than formula plus it was cheaper. I do think there are some health advantages but from extensive reading on the subject I am not entirely sure they all that gets implied by some of the more rabid members of the La Leche League.
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On breastfeeding being easy (and I know it is for lots and lots of people):

When I was hanging around on a breastfeeding support forum (I did, as I said, breastfeed my bio daughter, with some difficultly, for six months), there was a woman on the boards who had a baby that wouldn’t latch. The baby was almost (as I recall) two months old and had only been fed by a medicine dropper - because the lactation consultant and the boards were telling her that the baby would never latch if she gave him a bottle - that would cause nipple confusion. Baby wouldn’t latch with an SNS either. She would pump, then feed the baby with a dropper. And she had a toddler in the house. Her posts sounded like she was losing it. Two kids. Pump, feed with a dropper, which took and hour, then she was pumping again! The peditrician was pressuring her to put the baby on a bottle because he wasn’t gaining weight. She could have put breastmilk in the bottle. And there wasn’t another person on that board who thought this was a good idea, they were telling her to find a new peditrician - this one “wasn’t supportive of breastfeeding.” That’s was the last thread I participated in there.

85

Dangerosa, that whole “nipple confusion” thing just burns me up. My daughter had trouble latching, and lost a lot of weight. My lactation consultant told me that I had to start feeding her with a bottle. I told her I was worried that the baby would never go to the breast if I did that, and my LC said “don’t worry–she will.” And…she did! Once we both got the hang of it, she was a good nurser for a year, and was fed via bottle at daycare and via breast at home for that entire time, with no problems whatsoever. I don’t care what anyone says…getting nutrition…any nutrition…is more important than where it comes from.

I checked out mothering.com, and that forum is exactly what makes me crazy about this pro-BF movement. The problem with it is that the attitude that there is only ONE right way to be a mother is more likely to paralyze a woman with fear than it is to actually help her. I was so lucky to have a lactation consultant who helped me understand that sometimes you have to take it day by day and figure it out as you go along.

86

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Again, I think it’s a GOOD thing that formula today is so well made. It’s certainly a heck of a lot better than it was 100, 40 or even 20 years ago. Some of the formula hate is undoubtedly left over from when formula really was rather crap.
[/QUOTE]

Shoot, my parents took me off formula at about 4 months and put me on sweetened condensed milk. This was in 1965.

87

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Dangerosa, that whole “nipple confusion” thing just burns me up. My daughter had trouble latching, and lost a lot of weight. My lactation consultant told me that I had to start feeding her with a bottle. I told her I was worried that the baby would never go to the breast if I did that, and my LC said “don’t worry–she will.” And…she did! Once we both got the hang of it, she was a good nurser for a year, and was fed via bottle at daycare and via breast at home for that entire time, with no problems whatsoever. I don’t care what anyone says…getting nutrition…any nutrition…is more important than where it comes from.

[/QUOTE]

I’m starting to think that the nipple confusion thing is less of an issue the earlier you start them on the bottle. My son took a bottle at about 6 days old to supplement, and has never had a problem going from bottle to breast (ANY bottle to breast…he’ll basically have any bottle…). His latch is perfect, and it’s really not an issue.

Whereas I have friends who don’t introduce a bottle until 2-3 months and their babies refuse them - it’s been pretty tough on them. I have to wonder if they’d started the bottle earlier if it would be such an issue.

E.

88

I always had my suspicions that the IQ difference in breastfed vs. formula-fed babies was due to something besides the actual composition of the milk (i.e., differences in home situations, education of parents, etc., etc.). So this does not surprise me in the least.

I breastfed both of my kids primarily for the cost factor. Breastfeeding was kind of a nightmare for me with Whatsit Jr. for the first month or so, due to a variety of issues, but we made it through, mostly because there was just really no way we could have afforded to pay for formula at that time. So that was a huge motivator. And then around the 8-week mark everything got a lot easier and it was no big whoop from there on out.

89

[QUOTE=Elza B]
I’m starting to think that the nipple confusion thing is less of an issue the earlier you start them on the bottle. My son took a bottle at about 6 days old to supplement, and has never had a problem going from bottle to breast (ANY bottle to breast…he’ll basically have any bottle…). His latch is perfect, and it’s really not an issue.

Whereas I have friends who don’t introduce a bottle until 2-3 months and their babies refuse them - it’s been pretty tough on them. I have to wonder if they’d started the bottle earlier if it would be such an issue.

E.
[/QUOTE]
It’s interesting you say that, because I almost forgot the rest of my story. I fed her with a bottle for a day or so, and then, as I said, we figure the latching part out. I never used a bottle again until it was time for her to go to daycare at 3 months old…and she was not too happy with the bottle for a couple of days! I was using the Avent Isis pump, which has a whole system where you can pump directly into the bottle, and then just put the nipple on the top, but she would NOT use those nipples! Of course, they are SUPPOSED to be designed to be just like the breast, and the baby won’t know the difference, and blah blah blah. Well, the darn things were too big for her! I ended up getting her the plain old (inexpensive!) Gerber ones, which are supposed to be all wrong, and would exacerbate the nipple confusion & all that. She LOVED them, and we never had another problem.

So, I agree with you that switching back & forth from early on is probably the best idea…I am having another baby in April, and I plan to get that one switching back & forth from the beginning, so I can have the issue all ironed out before it becomes a necessity.

90

None of mine ever had “nipple confusion”. And none refused food from whatever source they could get it from, so I was lucky in that respect.

This is such a personal decision and one that should be supported, regardless of what the woman decides. A little less guilt in the world, especially in the world of mothering, is a good thing.

That eye dropper story makes me want to cry AND scream. I have a friend who with her third child-no way could she nurse him. She had mastitis, an abscess and lord knows what else (this is some years ago-memory fails), but she still got crap from people when she would pull out the bottle.

And then there are those who are breastfeeding who claim that they are hounded for doing so in public…we truly are an interesting species.

91

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

And then there are those who are breastfeeding who claim that they are hounded for doing so in public…we truly are an interesting species.
[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t say claim - I would say that they definately are. As much as this thread has been anti-antibreastfeeding thread, I think I can be just as vocal on the anti-breastfeeding thread. Places where people get hassled for breastfeeding, employers who don’t provide a place to pump (or think the ladies room is appropriate), husbands or relatives who aren’t supportive.

92

This hasn’t been an anti-anti-breastfeeding thread.

It’s an anti-breastfeeding advocates thread. :wink:

93

[QUOTE=JohnT]
This hasn’t been an anti-anti-breastfeeding thread.

It’s an anti-breastfeeding advocates thread. :wink:
[/QUOTE]

This hasn’t even been an anti-breastfeeding *advocates *thread.

It’s been an anti-busybody know-it-all shove their opinions in your face holier-than-thou zealot boobnazi with no consideration for personal choice or medical realities thread. :smiley:

94

Elza B, forget the guilt. You’re doing the best that you can possibly do for your little one, and that’s all anyone can ask. Good for you for trying so hard!

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
There are also some odd cases where the mother eats well, doesn’t lose weight too quickly, and her milk is of poor quality anyway. We had one Doper who shared a story like that a while ago. Her milk was sent to a lab for testing, and found to be little more than water. No one could explain why, but it did answer why her baby wasn’t gaining, despite vigorous nursing. Formula was the best option for her, as well.
[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to me? That happened with my first kid, where I didn’t care about losing baby weight. Second baby, I had to supplement with a small amount of formula per day (and I didn’t start vigorously dieting until he was on solids). So much for nipple confusion, eh?

[QUOTE=fessie]
Lord help you if you vaccinate, use disposable diapers, own a crib, buy commercially prepared baby food, use a stroller, or give your kid a Chicken McNugget.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, no. I’ve angered the mothering people. Are they going to come give me pertussis?

95

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
I wouldn’t say claim - I would say that they definately are. As much as this thread has been anti-antibreastfeeding thread, I think I can be just as vocal on the anti-breastfeeding thread. Places where people get hassled for breastfeeding, employers who don’t provide a place to pump (or think the ladies room is appropriate), husbands or relatives who aren’t supportive.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, now the boards are messing with me. I had thought you were the Doper who said you found society offers perfect support for breastfeeding!

Or else motherhood has addled my brain. Well, back up; we already knew that much was true.

96

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
I wouldn’t say claim - I would say that they definately are. As much as this thread has been anti-antibreastfeeding thread, I think I can be just as vocal on the anti-breastfeeding thread. Places where people get hassled for breastfeeding, employers who don’t provide a place to pump (or think the ladies room is appropriate), husbands or relatives who aren’t supportive.
[/QUOTE]

You’re right and I shouldn’t have said “claims”. My own mother, who was unable to breastfeed (my oldest sister lost something like 9 oz while nursing and was placed on formula by the doc-this was 1957; my mother never tried again-to be fair, her next kids were premie twins-anyway, upshot was that she was very hostile to breastfeeding; luckily she only came to visit for a short while with all three).
I just never had anyone bug me one way or the other about nursing or bottles–then again, I didn’t get out much when they were little. I honored naps and switched my schedule to theirs. I got grandma and grandpa or a sitter when I wanted to do a long shopping etc. I was very lucky that I had relatives close by–not that there weren’t “differences” with what my inlaws thought was best for my kids vs what I thought etc…and there’s another thread for ya!

Whynot -love your title summary of this thread! I wonder where our “lactivist” went…

97

[QUOTE=GingerOfTheNorth]
Are you referring to me? That happened with my first kid, where I didn’t care about losing baby weight.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I’m pretty sure I was remembering you, but I didn’t want to wade back through 5 thousand of my posts to find it and cite it, 'cause it was a long time ago. Plus, y’know, it’d be rude to “out” someone’s medical history like that. But since you came forward anyway…actually I was wondering if you were able to breastfeed your second. Was your milk richer the second time? Weird.

eleanorigby, I love the term “lactivist”. I may have to steal it and replace the worn-out “boobnazi”. :smiley:

98

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
I wouldn’t say claim - I would say that they definately are. As much as this thread has been anti-antibreastfeeding thread, I think I can be just as vocal on the anti-breastfeeding thread. Places where people get hassled for breastfeeding, employers who don’t provide a place to pump (or think the ladies room is appropriate), husbands or relatives who aren’t supportive.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I spent a week and a half with my family last week, and while my mom was incredible in other ways, every time my son would cry, she’d run for a bottle, and not even give me a chance to nurse him. I basically had to fight to nurse him all week and she kept trying to convince me to give it up.

All it really did was make me more determined to keep trying :wink: .

There really isn’t a place to pump in my office, so I may be relegated to the ladies’ room. I’m sure I can use someone’s office if they’re out, but we don’t have a break room or anything like that. So I’ll probably end up pumping in the bathroom. I’m fine with it - my job is so nice otherwise that I don’t mind making some concessions.

However, I’m still not brave enough to nurse in public except in the car on the way to VA last week - in the parking lot of a WaWa - and I’m not very good at it. But no one said anything (and I had a few people do a doubletake looking in the car - although I was covered up).

Support really does make a huge difference - my husband is incredibly supportive and honestly, if he weren’t, I would probably have quit by now.

fessie, MDC is scary. I lurk there (I’m a little crunchy - we sling him, he’s not circ’d, and I would co-sleep if DH would agree), but I’m nowhere near brave enough to post with them. I think I’d have a hard time holding my tongue.

E.

99

[QUOTE=CrankyAsAnOldMan]
Okay, now the boards are messing with me. I had thought you were the Doper who said you found society offers perfect support for breastfeeding!

Or else motherhood has addled my brain. Well, back up; we already knew that much was true.
[/QUOTE]

I, personally, found it supportive of breastfeeding. I am well aware it is not always the case. On the other hand, I found socity hostile to the idea of bottlefeeding.

Breastfeeding:

My employer went out of their way to provide a private and appropriate place to pump.

My coworkers were discretely supportive.

My family and friends were supportive.

The hospital provided a lacation consultant.

My peditrician and OB provided advice and support.

My insurance covered a hospital grade pump.

Even the formula company gave me a book on breastfeeding and a tube of lanolin.

However, as I said earlier, I never breastfed in public - my daughter would latch with any distraction. So I missed the public disapproval from strangers.

On the other hand, when I bottle fed:

I got the LLL telling me I shouldn’t bother to have children.

I got strangers telling me I wasn’t making the “best choice.”

I got the television telling me breast was better - I didn’t have a choice.

I had my girlfriends giving me nothing but pity while telling me how much easier and cheaper breastefeeding was. They were trying to be supportive. But its one place my wonderful girlfriends failed miserably (I was the first among them that couldn’t breastfeed).

I didn’t even get a can of free formula from the formula companies - they don’t shop for customers at the adoption agency.

100

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
I didn’t even get a can of free formula from the formula companies - they don’t shop for customers at the adoption agency.
[/QUOTE]

…which is weird, 'cause you’d think that would be a strong customer base, and parents who try one free can are more likely to buy that brand in the future… :confused:

I may be the only woman in history to bottle feed AT a LLL meeting and escape unscathed - but after I told them what was up and 30 granola crunching [del]boobnazis[/del] lactivists couldn’t get her to latch for me, they agreed I should be “allowed” to bottlefeed her my expressed milk while we chatted about toddler nutrition. :rolleyes:

I think a lot of this “public support” thing varies HUGELY depending on where you are geographically. Here in Chicago, I got nasty comments several times - at the mall, in a Babies R Us and at a restaurant - for using a bottle. Fuck 'em.

I went to visit a friend in Kentucky, and she got shocked looks and actually made people get up and leave a restaurant, complaining to the manager on the way out because she was being “disgusting” by nursing her baby at the table, completely covered up. Not just one or two crazies - I counted six tables that cleared out. I actually whipped out a tit and stuck my own baby on in defiance, even though she wasn’t nursing all that well at that point. Fuck 'em.

I have another friend from Iowa, who tells me it’s really, really strange to even want to breastfeed there, and everyone told her at 4 weeks that it’s “been long enough now, honey…you wouldn’t want to give your little boy one of them Oedipal things, right?” Fuck 'em.