Rest the breast (Breast milk does not boost IQ)

In My Humble Opinion
61

No, I disagree. You are not not doing all you can do to keep your baby healthy and happy (now babies are happier if breastfed? Trust me, the kid wants to be fed, period). What if bottle feeding makes Mama happy? Where is Mama in this? I could not physically hold up my head, much less feed round the clock. I was sleeping 14 hours a day with a newborn-that is the reality of hypothyroidism. It says much of my acceptance of “norms” that I accepted the fact that I was a lousy mother because I couldn’t handle the adjustment. It took me 9 months to finally go to the doctor and find out that I was sick, not a bad mother. And you’re going to tell me that I didn’t do all I could? With Kid #2-the one who was breastfed least, I wanted a normal (and to me, “normal” was bottle, from Kid #1) infancy for him. I wanted to enjoy my baby AND my toddler. That doesn’t meet your standards and that’s ok with me. I met mine and that’s what matters.

I look askance at any position that forces the mother to be incubator or milk dispenser. Mothers are people with their own needs and hang ups and preferences. You’ve heard the expression, “if momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy?” Well, IMO, a resentful, reluctant breastfeeder is more damaging to a baby than a cuddling, loving bottle feeder. Not everyone gets that relaxation or whatever that is supposed to come with lactation-the human response is as varied as humans. I was grateful for breastfeeding with my last one because it forced me to stop and sit down. At that point, I had an 8 year old, a 6 year old and a baby.
I never propped a bottle-how does one do that? What I did was this: I had a decent “bouncy seat”, not at all like the ones sold today. This was a cushy seat made by Evenflo that could be put flat or put at a 45 degree angle-every adult who saw it wished it came in their size! You could unhitch this latch to make it bounce or secure it so that it was stable. I hardly ever did the bouncy thing with it. Baby went in that-all of my babies loved it. This was not for every feed, but the one that occurred around our lunch time. I would make the toddler her lunch, put the seat on the table next to me. I then held the bottle so that he could drink. Toddler would play with baby’s feet. It was all very communal. There was never a bottle of anything in the crib, and I didn’t let them run around with bottles of juice or even water (except when teething-then they got bottles with iced water, which really helped).

For the other times, I HELD him-why is that so difficult to imagine? With a bottle, it is possible to have the baby’s head a bit more towards your shoulder than when he is attached to your breast. This use of my shoulder as a support for his head and shoulder carriage allowed me to move him over just enough so that toddler could sit and cuddle with me. He was a the size of a 3 month old when I took him home-but no neck control etc. What would you have me do? Of course, breast feed no matter what. :dubious:
#1 Kid held the book, and turned the pages, and I read aloud. Or sometimes-sit down for this-she watched TV while I fed the baby. All 3 of us on the couch together, laughing at Elmo or (god help me), Barney. You weren’t there; you aren’t me and so why is it an issue? This is not directed at you, but why do women do this to one another? Kudos to those who breastfed 12 kids, held down FT jobs and won the Nobel Peace Prize in their spare time. What has that to do with me and mine ? Nothing.

I’m sorry to sound so hostile, but I can’t believe this is questioned. Daddy got to hold and feed the older two, which helped immeasurably with the night time feedings, and he was great with all the babies. I see no reason for the zealotry that breastfeeding engenders and it irks me. I don’t see the need for it(the zealotry, not the nursing). I have known too many babies that were exclusively breastfed that got no obvious immediate immune boost (my third for one, another that got chicken pox and pneumonia all in her first year. She’s fine now, and not one of mine, but still!). It’s not a religion-it’s a way to feed your baby.

Sure it’s a good thing, and I wish that all moms would try it, but it’s not a requirement for motherhood-it’s one more thing to beat yourself up about. God knows that list doesn’t get any shorter over the years, but as your kids grow, you do gain some perspective on the whole issue. Baby will be just fine, as long as s/he is hitting their developemental markers etc.

We all want to do what is best for our babies (barring some pathological mothers, but that’s another thread). It’s the slippery slope of “best” where things get sticky. It starts (these days) even before you get pregnant. Then the whole “are the poster child for Olympic level healthiness while pregnant” starts. Gah! You had a glass of wine! You had some regular coffee! :eek: :rolleyes:

Then the whole-you had meds during delivery- For shame! (that was big when I had my first; things might be different now). Then it was the breast vs bottle controversy, and when to introduce solid food and just what that first food should be and then and then…It’s exhausting and so pointless. Amid the clutter and the contradictory advice and the judgements are some nuggets of wisdom, but it can hard to glean them. One of them is that breast is best. I believe that–but not to the extent that it is the only option. Thank god we have options today.
Ok-apparently I needed to get this off my chest! Sorry for the rant; I am not really jumping all over you, naot. I just don’t share your POV.

62

My current rant is the “c-sections should be avoided and are scheduled for the convience of doctors” mantra. One of my friends had a placental seperation. Could happen to anyone. Except she had a BUNCH of pointers to this being a high risk delivery - over 35, diabetic, overweight, toxemia, first baby by c-section, anticipated birthweight over eight pounds. But when they said “we should take this baby by c-section at 38 weeks” her response was “I’m not having a c-section so you can make your tee time.” So now they have a baby they are waiting to see how severely disabled she is - after spending weeks wondering if she would live.

There are darn good reasons to not do on an individual level what is best statistically for a population.

63

That is terrible. And then there are the folks who insist on a home delivery then turn around and sue the midwife for problems with the infant…oy. We seem to have an entitlement mentality when it comes to babies-we all should get perfect, healthy ones. I hope that for everyone expecting, but no matter how skilled the OB etc, sometimes it just doesn’t happen. OBs liability insurance is so incredibly high due to this culture of “I better have the perfect baby or else.” (I am not trying to imply that mistakes don’t happen, I am just talking about the sense that many have of because they want, it will happen).

I think that OBs are not taught the turning techniques etc that my father was taught back in the early 1950s(he is an MD but also got his midwife cert-about 20 years before it was fashionable. He doesn’t deliver babies-he wanted to know what sort of knowledge base that midwives had. He’s an OB and neonatal pathologist, but I digress). And I think that there are too many scheduled Csecxns for either party’s convenience, but that said, sometimes, it is the best possible choice.

I didn’t have an epidural with any of mine-but I had drugs, and was glad to get them thankyouverymuch. I never had a secxn.

64

Re: The cost of liability insurance for OBs - our first OB for baby #2 is a good friend of my husband’s family. He has stopped doing obstetrics because the liability insurance costs in excess of $100,000 annually. This is in MD. My FIL is a pediatrician, and pays somewhere around $25,000.

65

No, it’s not currently recommended, because of bacterial contamination concerns. Seriously. I asked about it, and the only thing close is donated, pasteurized milk from a milk bank (which is lacking antibodies anyway). I was told that even my best friend’s breast milk will be full of bacteria that she and her baby are self-immunized against, but that we don’t share bacteria colonies, and my baby shouldn’t drink her milk. Donated milk is hardly ever used for full-term infants, but is used for preemies, who may benefit from the superior digestibility and other benefits, even if the antibiotic properties are sadly lacking.

Overprotection on the part of the doctors? Maybe. But wet nurses are not recommended by current medical science. Formula is considered a safer and better option.

The other thing to remember about wet-nurses is that breast milk changes content as the baby ages. The milk of a preemie is nothing like that of a full term infant, and the milk of a full-term newborn is nothing like that of a 12 month old baby. So unless you can find a wet-nurse with a baby the same age, it’s less than ideal milk - it may have too much fat, not enough protein, etc. The really wild thing is that wet-nurses of old who would have only one baby of their own and then spend 20 years nursing other folks’ babies would have milk that changed BACK! Their milk would, after a few days with a newborn, become newborn milk again - but that won’t work for a modern woman who is nursing her own baby as well as yours, or nursing several babies of different ages.

Other mothers that shouldn’t nurse are those with really lousy diets who are unwilling or unable to change them, or mothers that are determined to stick with restricted calorie diets to lose weight. Their milk will not be as nutritious as a good quality formula.

There are also some odd cases where the mother eats well, doesn’t lose weight too quickly, and her milk is of poor quality anyway. We had one Doper who shared a story like that a while ago. Her milk was sent to a lab for testing, and found to be little more than water. No one could explain why, but it did answer why her baby wasn’t gaining, despite vigorous nursing. Formula was the best option for her, as well.

66

Friend of mine. Two kids - breastfed both of them for the first month, but the kids weren’t gaining weight as they should. Apparently, her milk can be bottled for the “low fat” section of the market. Strange, but apparently happens.

Other cases: some diseases transfer through breast milk. My cousin needs to be on medication for asthma - she was off it for pregnancy, but its life impacting - that shouldn’t be used while breastfeeding. Anyone who has had breast reduction surgery or implants should be careful - it can impact milk production - you can nurse, but you want to make sure baby is gaining like she should.

67

Eleanor Rigby, if it seemed like I was attacking you, I apologize, that was not my intention. I only have one kid, and I was genuinely curious about the logistics, that is all.

I think you fit very well in the loopholes I left- you were not necessarily physically capable of nursing, and you did at least try, before deciding that discontinuing was in your family’s best interest.

About C-Sections
Before my daughter was born, I worked in a law firm that did medical malpractice defense. I would not have a baby in a hospital if I could possibly avoid it. I worked on a case where a set of twins were left with no mom, because the doctor felt there was an unreasonable risk of being sued if he didn’t do a C-sec, and she got an infection and died. (Death is much more likely for both mother and child in a c-sec, even in elective c-sec’s with no risk factors).

I wrote an article in law school about this issue. C-sections save lives, but countries with considerably better infant mortality rates than ours do them half as often as we do.

68

My position is simple I am in favor of breast sucking, by who, at what age, and for what reasons are immaterial.

69

Who are you to decide on acceptable “loopholes”?

You are really pissing me off with your smug attitude, but I did notice something glaring in your post - you’ve got one kid. It’s not at all unusual for women with one child to think they’ve got this business licked, only to find out via subsequent children that their proficiency was temporary.

Everybody else is giving good reasons why bfeeding didn’t work - I’ll throw out another example. My cousin. She quit breastfeeding her daughter because she didn’t like the way it felt. Period. Is she a lousy mother? How the F would I know. The story of her motherhood is being written, day by day; we make a lot of different choices. We’re different people, living different lives. No doubt we’ll have different regrets, somewhere down the road.

70

Heh-heh.

Decided to come here and kick an ant nest, huh? Sorta like that person who asked the Brits what they thought of Mags Thatcher… wonder if they knew what they were getting into as well? :smiley:

71

Grrr. It is not up to you to leave anyone “loopholes”. Honestly, do you realize how arrogant that sounds? I could well have posted here that I prefer bottle because I prefer bottle. It is neither bad or wrong or a sign of lax mothering–it is a different option that you don’t agree with.

I do hope you aren’t litigious when that home birth turns out to be too difficult for home–or like my first(not at home), which was a standard, straightforward, boring L&D…until my daughter crowned, with the cord so twisted around her head that she was strangling. The OB actually apologized to my husband because my husband wasn’t allowed to cut the damned thing. My husband retorted, " forget the damned ‘birth experience!’ Make sure my daughter and wife are ok." The doctor had already done so, but felt the need to make it up to my husband–that is messed up. Not that the doc tried to be nice, but that the expectation is there that Dad gets a souvenier experience of cutting the cord etc. It’s bizarre when you think about it. But I digress.

I agree with you that there are way too many Csecxns. I do not agree that home birth is safer. To each his own. I’m sorry if I seem hard on you-that loophole thingy truly pissed me off. No other mother can be the arbiter of another’s mothering (barring abuse, neglect and danger, of course). The world doesn’t work that way (but if it did, it would be MY way…<demonic laugh>). :wink:

As mothers, especially those who are new, first time mothers, so much seems to ride on every decision. It can be frightening and paralyzing. Since choices seem to be so crucial, people easily get wedded to the ones they make. You’ve done it, I’ve done it. “I’ll never give my kid a pacifier!” “How could you not give your baby a pacifier!” type of stuff. Once they reach Kindergarten, a lot of this stuff has been ironed out and it becomes obvious that those who adhered to your school of thought are no better or even that different than those who did not. IOW, it all comes out in the wash.

72

Crap-that should say “cord wrapped around her NECK”.

yeah, I got a C in anatomy… :slight_smile:

73

Btw, we gave formula to our daughter. 130+ IQ, one ear infection in her five years of life, a wonderful, happy beautiful little girl.

Too bad we fucked her up. She could’ve had a 133 IQ, no ear infections, and be happier, more beautiful and more wonderful.

Can God ever forgive us? :rolleyes:

74

Yeah, cause its so much easier to deal with placental seperation in a home birth…

C Sections are probably done far too often. But the problem is that my friend bought that hook line and sinker. She was convinced - even after her first was born via emergency c-section, that c-sections were BAD, unnatural, and dangerous (after all, those nutcases down at LLL who did the anti-adoption rant my direction told her they should be absolutely avoided). So when her doctor highly recommended a c-section - and wouldn’t deliver her without one - she went and found a midwife who was willing to deliver. Now she has a disabled kid. But its ok, because medical malpractice insurance will cover it - even though her doctor recommended a c-section.

This is probably a little more than you deserve - but functionally, it was someone telling her pretty much exactly what you just typed that resulted in her daughter being disabled. Be VERY VERY careful of what you say around stupid people (did I mention this woman isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer?) because they extrapolate that to all situations.

75

It seems you are suggesting that people should muzzle their opinions because someone, somewhere, might be dull-witted enough to take their word as gospel and endanger his or her own life (or that of their child) by following it. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but that’s how the last post came across.

On the one hand, I understand the compulsion to protect the most idiotic among us. But the implication that one bears some culpability for how people twist their words, and that one should never pass on articles they’ve read or share informed opinions they’ve come to hold… that sounds extreme to my ears.

That is really sad about the woman you know. Setting aside what happened to her baby for a minute… one has to ask what kind of person would ignore everything she knew about her own serious medical conditions and completely dismiss a doctor’s advice based on a statistic she heard offhand. Unfortunately, that doesn’t strike me as the kind of person who could be saved by everyone watching their words around her.

76

When you say “much more likely”, that sounds so weighty; I think the truth (for Americans) is something like 4/10000 vs. 1/10000. I always wonder how statisticians can say with absolute confidence that the women who had “elective” C-secs wouldn’t have experienced any other complications through a natural birth.

My OB told me flat-out that I was having a C-sec b/c Baby A (my son) was breech (in twin pregnancies the “lower” baby is always referred to as “Baby A”). I said “Thank you.” Not because C-secs are preferable, but because if it weren’t for modern medicine, all three of us would’ve died. Sometimes we forget that.

naotalbah, you’d probably really enjoy posting at mothering dot com, just to give you a heads-up if you don’t already know about the place. Not that you shouldn’t stick around here - you’re welcome to enjoy The Dope. But the women here aren’t likely to passively accept your judgemental dogma. At MDC it’s practically gospel. Actually, it IS gospel, and anyone who doesn’t toe the line spends a lot of time apologizing. Lord help you if you vaccinate, use disposable diapers, own a crib, buy commercially prepared baby food, use a stroller, or give your kid a Chicken McNugget.

77

Yeah, but the doctor and indirectly, we, end up paying for this woman’s belief in some idyllic “birth experience.” The doctor ended up culpable, so it seems, despite having informed the patient of the risks involved. I do hope the midwife was sued-but seriously, how deep are her pockets compared to Dr OBs?

I don’t think it’ a case of watching your words. I think it’s a case of not prosletyzing one point of view. Who knows if this woman had been told that Csecxns were sometimes necessary, instead of secxns being demonized, just what she would have decided. Then again, you can’t fix stupid. Once can fix ignorant, but not stupid, so maybe there was no hope… I"ll tell you this, though: after almost 20 years of working in a hospital, NEVER underestimate the stupidity and/or ignorance of people.

78

eleanorrigby and fessie got it. No one should muzzle their opinions, but they should be careful in how they state them - words can have unattended consequences. And they shouldn’t “lie with statistics.” Which most of these discussions are filled with. Whether its a report on breastfeeding and IQ that doesn’t account for socioeconomic class differences (how flawed WAS that orginal study? - that’s a basic!) or saying you are much more likely to die - when your chance of dying in childbirth is still very small.

There are thee meme’s in the hippy granola subculture I float around in regarding childbirth and babies that drive me nuts - one is “breastfeeding is SO much better for the baby that if you don’t do it you’d better have a really really good reason” another is “almost no one needs a c-section” and the third is “vaccinations are bad.”

79

Unattended and unintended both.

I want to probe this a little more, because your position surprises me. Would this just be in relation to childbirth and childrearing, or other topics, too?

What about opinions that are in support of the things you believe? Consider a hypothetical case where someone’s baby is born with a serious digestive issue and can’t process formula. But she gives the baby formula anyway, instead of the medically-prescribed nutritional substitute her doctor gave her, because she overhead me say that in developed countries, formula is safe and a perfectly acceptable way to feed an infant (which I have said, and believe is true, and would stand behind). The baby becomes seriously ill as a result. Am I culpable? Should I have watched my words? Shouldn’t I deserve the same admonishment?

80

You probably already know that I admire you, but right now, I love you.

I’m going through this whole guilt thing right now, both over my birth experience and over feeding my son. I do breastfeed him, but I make very little milk due to a breast reduction. When I pump, I get about a 1/2 ounce - and that’s from BOTH SIDES. I’m trying Fenugreek, Blessed Thistle (in fact, my husband just ran to the drugstore to get me both right now), I’ve used a supplemental nursing system to stimulate production, and I’m considering ordering Domperidone to see if that helps. So he is primarily a formula-fed baby, but he also gets breastmilk from me, both what I pump and what he gets from the actual breast. I’m doing the best I can, and so far, he’s a healthy, growing little guy.

So explain to me why I feel guilty every time I mix up formula for him or buy bottles or formula? Because expectant moms are pretty much banged over the head with the whole ‘breast is best’ mantra as soon as they get pregnant. For those of us who desperately want to be our child’s main food source and can’t, it’s a pretty shitty feeling. I am damn proud of myself for going 7 weeks so far with what little breastmilk I can give him, and I plan on going as long as we can, but it’s extremely disheartening to nurse him, and then just have to give him a bottle to supply his main nourishment.

So while it might sound silly, studies like these ease my guilt just a bit. I know it shouldn’t, but it makes me feel better to know that I’m not totally screwing my son up by not being able to provide breastmilk as his main source of nourishment.

I don’t quite understand choosing not to even try breastfeeding, but I do think you’re right here. I had a FANTASTIC lactation consultant at the hospital where I gave birth, and even after a hella-difficult birth experience (35 hours of active labor, ending in an emergency c-section, and a baby with breathing difficulties and low blood sugar, which meant he needed to be finger-fed formula before I could nurse), thanks to her, my son latched on incredibly well when I finally got to nurse him. The nurses were all incredibly supportive of breastfeeding, and it was very much stressed by all of them (I know they didn’t make formula moms feel bad, but it was extremely nice to have nurses who supported my choice to try and breastfeed, rather than pushing me to formula-feed immediately because of my issues). I had nurses in and out of my room constantly helping me with my latch, position, etc, because they knew how much I wanted to breastfeed. Honestly, had they not been so supportive, I probably would be clueless right now and wouldn’t have continued after we started supplementing. I have my LC’s pager number for ‘emergencies’, and I plan on calling her tomorrow to ask her opinion on a couple of things. Knowing that I had, and still have, that support is helping me to keep going.

E.