Rest the breast (Breast milk does not boost IQ)

In My Humble Opinion
141

[QUOTE=Elza B]
Exactly - you hit the nail on the head here. I can’t tell you how many friends I have who’ve given up BFing for some issue or another who are hit with HUGE guilt because of BFing ‘advocates’ who say “Well, if you had just tried HARDER…”.

E.
[/QUOTE]

I know exactly were that is coming from -

This is what happens in my world. The last 3 women that I know who had babies (all are educated, comfortable, good socio-economic class, etc.) all began breastfeeding, although as far as I know none were totally committed. All were given professional “advice” about how to do it that boiled down to a bunch of odd and arbitrary rules. About keeping rigid nursing schedules, preparing the nipple, etc. which certainly didn’t make breastfeeding any easier, and may have made it down right impossible. All quit and went to bottles before their infants were 4 months old (the first stopped at 3 days, the last at 3 and a half months). All three say that they “didn’t have enough milk” and that was why they quit.

Well, they may have had more than enough milk if they had gone about it the right way. No way to tell.

I’d wager, for every incredibly dedicated mother who goes to the nth degree to breastfeed and only stops after trying lots of options there are 1,000 who are misguided from the start and “don’t have enough milk” because they were misinformed.

My biggest pet peeve with the tone of all this is the misguided notion that all a parent’s choices are either validated or not by how the kid “turns out.” Like every parent of a Harvard graduate gets a little “You are a good parent because your child turned out OK” sticker or something. There are an infinite number of reasons why a child does or does not “turn out OK.” What a parent does for them as 6 week olds has very, very little to do with it.

142

[QUOTE=Long Time First Time]
This is what happens in my world. The last 3 women that I know who had babies (all are educated, comfortable, good socio-economic class, etc.) all began breastfeeding, although as far as I know none were totally committed. All were given professional “advice” about how to do it that boiled down to a bunch of odd and arbitrary rules. About keeping rigid nursing schedules, preparing the nipple, etc. which certainly didn’t make breastfeeding any easier, and may have made it down right impossible. All quit and went to bottles before their infants were 4 months old (the first stopped at 3 days, the last at 3 and a half months). All three say that they “didn’t have enough milk” and that was why they quit.

Well, they may have had more than enough milk if they had gone about it the right way. No way to tell.

I’d wager, for every incredibly dedicated mother who goes to the nth degree to breastfeed and only stops after trying lots of options there are 1,000 who are misguided from the start and “don’t have enough milk” because they were misinformed.
[/QUOTE]

If it’s a case of education - obviously, there’s no point in making them feel guilty for something that’s already occurred that can’t be changed. Why not educate and offer to help for the next baby, if there is one?

I think if we concentrated more on educating moms and making sure that the hospital provides excellent support and more LC’s for new moms instead of castigating those who have already quit, for whatever reason, we’ll have less moms stopping in the future and more breastfed babies eventually. It seems like what happens now is currently just offensive to moms and may make them more apt NOT to breastfeed in the future. I was fortunate to be at a hospital with an LC at a moment’s notice, and nurses who were all knowledgeable about BFing, but I suspect it’s not like that at all hospitals, which is where we fall short in the education department.

(And Diana - my son will see plenty of Sesame Street;) - and thanks to my aunt, he already has more plastic, noisy toys than he will know what to do with.:D)

E.

143

[QUOTE=Long Time First Time]

My biggest pet peeve with the tone of all this is the misguided notion that all a parent’s choices are either validated or not by how the kid “turns out.” Like every parent of a Harvard graduate gets a little “You are a good parent because your child turned out OK” sticker or something. There are an infinite number of reasons why a child does or does not “turn out OK.” What a parent does for them as 6 week olds has very, very little to do with it.
[/QUOTE]

LTFT, I think this may be directed at something I said, but actually, that *was * my point. My daughter is a great kid, and I’d attribute perhaps 10% of that to my parenting choices. She’s always *been * a great kid. We all spend our time agonizing about every little choice we make, when much of what we do won’t have any lasting effect at all.

That’s not to say that we shouldn’t worry at all. Of course we should think about our parenting, and educate ourselves so as to make the best possible choices, and try our hardest every day. But to believe that your child’s destiny is a direct result of any one decision you make or action you take, well… that way lies madness.

144

[QUOTE=DianaG]
LTFT, I think this may be directed at something I said, but actually, that *was * my point. My daughter is a great kid, and I’d attribute perhaps 10% of that to my parenting choices. She’s always *been * a great kid. We all spend our time agonizing about every little choice we make, when much of what we do won’t have any lasting effect at all.

That’s not to say that we shouldn’t worry at all. Of course we should think about our parenting, and educate ourselves so as to make the best possible choices, and try our hardest every day. But to believe that your child’s destiny is a direct result of any one decision you make or action you take, well… that way lies madness.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with you so much here. Of course, my daughter is only 2, so it’s a long row to hoe before we know how she is going to turn out. But despite my worrying over every little thing concerning her life, and probably a thorough mix of good, bad, and indifferent choices I have made, she seems remarkably happy & healthy. I think that if you let the kid know you love them and give them a lot of affection & support (along with a healthy meal now & again), there is very little in life that is really going to cause major damage in the long run. All this pointing fingers and judging who is doing the “right” things and who isn’t is just expressing our own insecurities, and doesn’t benefit anybody.

145

[QUOTE=Elza B]
If it’s a case of education - obviously, there’s no point in making them feel guilty for something that’s already occurred that can’t be changed. Why not educate and offer to help for the next baby, if there is one?
[/QUOTE]
I agree. I also like something I heard recently: moms who wanted to breastfeed and wound up stopping because of bad information or poor support shouldn’t feel guilty, they should feel angry. In the sense that anger can be motivating, and the point is to push for more information to reach the people who need it.

I talked to a woman who went to her local middle school and nursed her baby in front of a class, and educated them about breastfeeding. I think that’s an awesome idea, and at the same time I can’t believe the school let it happen. Maybe I’m just bitter after being told I had to move while nursing my baby at the YMCA because there were school kids walking by, the horror!

146

I do feel angry, and that is what is coming out here. I’m angry that when I went to the LLL they told me I shouldn’t waste my time if I couldn’t have bio kids. I’m angry that my lactation consultant told me that my baby was getting enough - when my milk hadn’t come in, she wasn’t latching and we almost had a newborn in NICU (and my sister did for the same reason) I’m angry about the woman still dropper feeding a two month old because it might cause nipple confusion. I’m angry that at eight months complete strangers would get in an elevator with me, look at me and say “you DO intend to breastfeed, don’t you?” Or when bottlefeeding my son people would say “you know, he’s going to grow up to be sick because you didn’t breastfeed.”

I’m also angry about the woman who was thrown out of McDonald’s for nursing. About Elza’s mother in law running for the bottle every time the baby cried. About women who pump in the ladies room because that is the only place their employer provides (and they somehow think this is appropriate.) About people getting dirty looks when they feed in public. About nurses who decide that a tired new mom needs to sleep, so don’t bother to bring in baby to nurse.

There is a fine line between being supportive of someone’s choice to breastfeed and being unsupportive of their choice to bottlefeed. Too often, when someone tries to breastfeed and gives up, there isn’t any support for her bottlefeeding - just that she somehow gave up too soon, didn’t see the right experts. It would be nice if, instead of saying “gee, you should have talked to your lactation consultant - did you try a LLL meeting? Your doctor did say the antibiotics would kick in in just a few hours and you should nurse through it?” instead say “yeah, a lot of new Moms don’t make it past mastitisis - its really painful. But, you know what, plenty of kids were formula fed and are healthy, happy and intellegent, I’m sure your baby will be too.”

147

By the way, I have a very odd perspective on this. My son came home from Korea (yeah, people would comment on the bottle while lil-ol-white me was feeding an Asian child, – idiots) at six months. Six months later my daughter was born and I breastfed her (after a rocky start) for six months until she rejected the breast in favor of being able to look around when she had a bottle. So within a year I was on both sides of the breast/bottle situation. Certainly, the fact that I had a child less than a year old who had never been breastfed at home made me super sensitive to the arguments used that I should breastfeed the child I was currently pregnant with. To listen to them, my son would be always ill (breastfeeding has such health benefits), stupid (it adds IQ points), and a sociopath (it improves bonding). In addition, it was so much easier (it wasn’t), and cheaper (that, I’ll go for - it was also the best diet I’ve ever been on - I could eat whatever I wanted and dropped weight like mad). In an effort to make their case, they exaggerated the benefits enough to only offend me.

148

[QUOTE=fessie]

I’m of the opinion that showing is better than telling.
[/QUOTE]

Well, to each their own. I know how tempting it is to just give it right back, and maybe to a perfect stranger I would. Actually, take out the spoeculation–I have. But I don’t know if IMHO (such an aptly named forum!) it’s better.

I want my son to know that teasing others isn’t nice. Maybe it would make a big impact to say “Son, your ears stick out like a monkey’s. There, see how that feels?” I am sure that would hurt his feelings and make him think about how others might feel when he poked fun at their looks. But I just don’t think it’s better than asking him to think it over.

149

[QUOTE=CrankyAsAnOldMan]
Well, to each their own. I know how tempting it is to just give it right back, and maybe to a perfect stranger I would. Actually, take out the spoeculation–I have. But I don’t know if IMHO (such an aptly named forum!) it’s better.
[/QUOTE]

Boy, I didn’t want to kill this thread, but you’re not letting this drop. I don’t think I made it that personal to naotalbah, although apparently I struck a chord with you. Are you looking for an apology from me?

I didn’t think that I was “giving it back” – I listed all of the perfectly valid reasons why my friends and acquaintances have used daycare, and I said that every Mother has to make that decision for herself. And that no justifications are necessary. And that women who are using formula would like the same respect.

naotalbah characterized “I prefer bottle” with no other reason given as “lax mothering.” My little diatribe carried no such judgements.

150

What is this, meta-castigation?

She made her point the way she wanted to make it.

Moving on…

151

Crap-that last post was directed at crankyoldman.

152

No, fessie, I don’t mean to beat a dead horse. However, you were introducing a new idea (I mean, “new” in that it wasn’t discuss it earlier) which was that a “show don’t tell” philosophy is better, in your opinion. Me? I have a different opinion on that issue, and I shared it.

I’m not looking for an apology-- to my knowledge no one in this thread has griped at me about my child-rearing choices. I may have missed it. Believe me, there are ample things one could choose–C-section? Check. Breastfeeding “too long?” Check. Giving formula? Check. Attending LLL meetings? Check. Using Daycare? Check. Sesame street? Check.

I apologize for seeming like a nitpicky old hag. I think, if I had to put my finger on why I am in this thread, I have been hearing these same arguments for nearly a decade (on this board and elsewhere) and I am just so weary of them. I am tired of seeing lactation activisist shoot a good cause in the foot by boorish behavior, condescension, and hyperbolic exaggeration of the benefits of breastfeeding. I am tired of seeing non-breastfeeding moms tie themselves in knots providing unnecessary justifications and anecdotal denials of long-accepted medical facts. I generally stopped bothering with any debate a long time ago, but I opened this thread because of its provocative title. It’s depressing to be reminded that this country (and, unfortunately, this board) seems to be about in the same place it has been for a decade on the breasfeeding issue: Misinformed, defensive, judgmental, focusing on issues of questionable relative importance. Yeah, I mean both sides.

One of the pathetic efforts I’ve made–in my typically verbose style–is to try to feel out a middle ground for mutual agreement, which, from the last three comments directed to me, I see I’ve done a shit job at. I guess my irritation gets the better of me. For that, I apologize.

153

No worries, cranky -I see your point and for the most part, I agree.
Off to make potatoes au gratin, straight from Betty Crocker… :wink:

154

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
I think you’ll find that every reputable cite recommends 600 calories per day over pregnancy guidelines for nursing mothers to have good quality and quantity of milk. This isn’t to say that you can’t safely lose weight while nursing - most women, in fact, lose quite a bit of weight while nursing without even trying (but this is by no means universal.) I think Weight Watchers offering reduced calorie diet plans for nursing mothers is ethically and medically dubious, but on the other hand, it’s probably still a better diet plan than most women would come up with on their own (that is, it probably still incorporates more nutrition and less empty calories).

[/QUOTE]

Non-mother, but WW member checking in: WW actually gives nursing mothers 10 extra points above their daily points target. So, that works out to about the 600 calories mentioned.

Susan

155

[QUOTE=CrankyAsAnOldMan]
I am tired of seeing lactation activisist shoot a good cause in the foot by boorish behavior, condescension, and hyperbolic exaggeration of the benefits of breastfeeding. I am tired of seeing non-breastfeeding moms tie themselves in knots providing unnecessary justifications and anecdotal denials of long-accepted medical facts.
[/QUOTE]

Well put. No arguments from me on this.

But I haven’t found this thread at all depressing - perhaps that’s because I assume that we’re all thinking “yep, good point” many times throughout, even if we don’t post it. And I think our central argument to naotalbah is that judgement itself is deleterious, regardless of the particular issue.

The other thing is - childbirth and mothering have come a long way since my childhood. Back then, Mom was put under & the doc yanked the baby out as Dad smoked in the waiting room. Breastfeeding? What, did you just get off the boat?

Give it another 40 years and see how much farther we get.

156

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
There is a fine line between being supportive of someone’s choice to breastfeed and being unsupportive of their choice to bottlefeed. Too often, when someone tries to breastfeed and gives up, there isn’t any support for her bottlefeeding - just that she somehow gave up too soon, didn’t see the right experts. It would be nice if, instead of saying “gee, you should have talked to your lactation consultant - did you try a LLL meeting? Your doctor did say the antibiotics would kick in in just a few hours and you should nurse through it?” instead say “yeah, a lot of new Moms don’t make it past mastitisis - its really painful. But, you know what, plenty of kids were formula fed and are healthy, happy and intellegent, I’m sure your baby will be too.”
[/QUOTE]
Oh, how I can relate to this. I exclusively pumped for 5 months, had chronic unresponsive intraductal thrush and endless clogged ducts. I pumped for 30 minutes every 2 hours and took domperidone. I so desperately wanted my daughter to get breastmilk and when breastfeeding was not successful, I felt like I had to do this or I wasn’t doing “enough”.

When I was pregnant, I had never given myself an “out” on breastfeeding. Of course I would breastfeed for at least a year. I had idealized it. I had soaked in all those facts about the benefits of breastfeeding and I never considered that not everything could be in my control. When the breastfeeding failed, I was determined to pump, no matter how many hours a day it took. In my mind, I took all those benefits and couldn’t give myself permission to quit. And ads that talked about reduced risk of SIDS with breastmilk? I felt like quitting was saying I would risk my daughter’s life. It wasn’t rational, but those ads and articles and crap made me feel like stopping breastfeeding was like not caring enough to put your baby in a carseat (which is clearly untrue). Those lovely ads that show a pregnant woman riding a mechanical bull and equates that with formula feeding? What kind of warped mind thinks that ad is a good idea?

I quit at 5 months after many tears, and there were many nights beyond that when I thought about whether there may be consequences to that, but of course there’s no way to know. I heard some really hurtful comments about how all my effort was for naught because “now your baby missed the bonding of physically breastfeeding”, about seeing a lactation consultant (I did), and too many others to name. After being on a severe elimination diet because of allergies, I finally was just too worn out with the constant pumping to really enjoy the baby. A nurse said to me, “All things being equal, breastmilk is best. Of course, all things are rarely equal.” I just needed to hear it. Having a mom who was allowed eat normally and sleep occasionally and had time to just cuddle - that counts for something too.

And you know, no one judged me more than me. I have never and would never in a million years think those thoughts about another woman and whatever choice she made for feeding her children. If I could have gotten anyone to just shut up, it would have been that little voice in my head.

157

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Off to make potatoes au gratin, straight from Betty Crocker… :wink:
[/QUOTE]
My mom, never a big cooking fan, made them often when I was growing up. I hadn’t had them in years. My husband brought some home from the store recently. I was dubious (my memories of them was that they weren’t terrible but weren’t great) but way too cheap to NOT make them. I was pleasantly surprised. Plus that 20 minutes thing (once you boil the water)? Feels like a miracle.

and funnily, we had those tonight too.

158

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

naotalbah -here’s a (likely) unwelcome thought. Perhaps you are so stridently pro-breastfeeding because your child is in daycare? I don’t know; I’m only speculating, but since Daycare has its own huge baggage in the Mom community, it makes sense to compensate one huge guilt maker with another huge Brownie point maker, no? That’s human nature-I’m not snarking at you about it.

My ultimate point is that neither breastfeeding or staying home with baby qualifies anyone for sainthood or the good mothering award of the century. We are all creating our motherhoods every day, as we mother and parent. Anything else is just marketing.

I, personally, loathe the competition that is unstated but rampant in moms today (and probably for all time). It’s funny how most of it stops around 1st grade, when most find out that they don’t have the next Einstein on their hands…but then something odd happens. Within each strata of achieving children, competition starts up again among the parents. So, if your kid is in the gifted program, tests scores and awards are disingenously not talked about, but intensely sought and bickered over. It’s a bit insane, really. Sometimes it’s the kids who are hungry for the top spot, but mostly, it’s the parents.

To wander a bit OT, I think my job as a parent is threefold*. First, I need to raise civil, productive, law-abiding citizens. Second, I need to foster personal growth within each child-healthy in body, mind and in spirit.** Third, I need to pass on my values in the form of traditions, responses and reactions and behaviors, (to the extent that I can), so that these values continue. Number 3 is so important, that it made me really look closely at some of my assumptions and presumptions in life. It has made me question church and organized religion, pop culture, class structure in America-just for starters. Parenting is no easy task. This is why I have little patience with what I call black and white parents: Bfeeding is next to godliness, spanking is child abuse, white bread is poor mothering etc. There is no one right way to do this-there never will be.

*It’s probably so folded, it’s oragami, but for this thread’s purpose, 3 will suffice.

**I know this sounds like a 1950’s hygiene film, sorry! :wink:
[/QUOTE]

Oddly enough, it sounds like we have very similar parenting philosophies. Part of my attempts to pass on my values to my daughter is to pass on that it is natural and normal to feed babies from your breasts, because I want her to be comfortable with that as a parent as well. I do, however, believe that some moral judgments are black and white (e.g. it’s never right to hate someone for something that can’t be changed), so we differ there.

I offended most everyone with my arrogant “loopholes,” but my point was that I don’t judge women for not breastfeeding, but I do judge them for being able to, but refusing to make the effort. If you were to do the same to me, to look at the circumstances of why I don’t stay at home with my daughter and decide that I am in the wrong, I would accept your right to do so (although I may not agree with your judgment).

I deliberately did not describe my daughter’s daycare situation, because I was curious if anyone thought that circumstances were important, as I do. (She was cared for at home by her father from 3 months until 21 months, when she started at Montessori preschool, if anyone cares. Her dad is a high school dropout, I am a lawyer. We have since split.)

I became a lactavist while trying to get pregnant, incidently- a big portion of it was “dear god, if you just give me a baby I promise to do everything I can to take the best care of her possible.”

On a different note: we all agree that the current program for breastfeeding education isn’t working. What will? I would love to have a “nuts and bolts” this is how it is done type class in high school health classes (which won’t happen, I know, since “it would encourage teen pregnancies” :rolleyes: ) Failing that, how can we get the message to the women who need to know, without becoming the crazies that attacked Dangerosa? How do we get the information she needs to Cinnamon’s hypothetical victim of bad advice, without making DianaG feel like we expect her daughter to have 2 heads?

159

[QUOTE=naotalbah]
On a different note: we all agree that the current program for breastfeeding education isn’t working. What will? I would love to have a “nuts and bolts” this is how it is done type class in high school health classes (which won’t happen, I know, since “it would encourage teen pregnancies” :rolleyes: ) Failing that, how can we get the message to the women who need to know, without becoming the crazies that attacked Dangerosa? How do we get the information she needs to Cinnamon’s hypothetical victim of bad advice, without making DianaG feel like we expect her daughter to have 2 heads?
[/QUOTE]

I’m not so sure the current program IS failing. There might be a woman under a rock somewhere who’s never heard “breast is best”, but I doubt she has much company. It’s printed right on the frickin formula cans, BTW.

There’s a saying “When the student is ready, the teacher will come.”

I know this is anathema for a lawyer ;), but instead of splitting hairs with judgements and reasoning, just accept that wonderful, loving mothers make different choices.

Leave off the proseltyzing, and have some faith.

160

More more more more and standardization of training. One hosptial I was at had the nurses hollering at me to use formula or they wouldn’t discharge me when they discharged my child (pre-eclampsia and I wasn’t letting myself get enough rest) or that I’d brain damage my child (the bili levels weren’t that high. Their lac was kind of a joke, a real breastfeeding “enthusiast” (ran a support group full of NFPers who went on and on about how formula was unregulated medical experimentation on the most vunerable people on the planet and their children). Aside from completely blowing off my medical history as “impossible” when it came to my problems breastfeeding as an infant, she was useful only to get me free stuff. Kid latched, I just had to wait for milk and for the birth weight to come back (after about a month). I had to beg her to teach me to finger feed formual as the nurses refused to.

Another I was at had lactation consultants who tried, bless their hearts. And the nurses were sane (no lectures about me smothering the baby by breastfeeding). But not many of their clients (I witnessed them interacting with three different women aside from myself) were really willing to take the patience to go at it, they were also discouraged by their mothers and husbands or baby daddies. The house pediatrician was no help, either; they insisted on formula feeding my child and keeping my child for jaundice (levels weren’t that high, last time I got a bili box sent home with us) so I just did my best to keep my milk up (I didn’t pump, but I did express a little). Still took a month to get the child’s birth weight back.

I think some of the moms were intimidated by the lacs at the second hospital. A lactating mom might be more effective … maybe partnered with the lacs.

Most of the impatience on the medical people’s part was birthweight and jaundice. Mostly they wanted me to stuff the kids with formula. And only by using some formula did I (beside committing a captial crime) manage to get the kids up to speed; I’m not one of those 20oz a session gals and my kids were taking 5oz breastmilk bottles at just a month of age (which I keep getting told is impossible).

With nurses, lacs, parents, partners, doctors, et cetera finding different ways to discourage it, either through brute force or fear or various forms of intimidation, I don’t know what can really be done other than just keep educating everyone. And getting more money into the system, somehow.

More support groups (not all staffed by insane people). Home visit support. Bonuses by insurance companies, somehow … I know i had a waiting period for my marriage license and got a discount for taking a class … can we do something like that for babies? Like co-pay reimbursment? Just trying to think outside of the box, I know that logically the formual feeding folks would likely need the money more to pay for formula.

More celebrity nursers. A “got momma milk” campaign. Planting positive and real story lines in soaps and tv shows. Or just me and other moms, walking around Target and the grocery store, sligning and nursing and answering any questions kids have as we go about our daily lives.