Based on some opinions in this thread, those “Pick your own fruit” farms that are only open on Saturday are discriminatory against practicing Jews. I mean, reaping and gathering are forbidden on Shabbat, right?
Really, why is it so hard to accept that having to have a piece of paper, or at least utter words that acknowledge the existence of such paper, is not discriminatory?
Discrimination:
Signs saying “No Darkies, Irish, or Chinamen.” or “No Catholics”.
Requiring recitation of oaths that would only be known by active members of a specific religious or ethnic group.
Penis checks at the door.
Not discrimination:
Hours of operation that coincidentally inconvenience a protected group (such as the previously mentioned pick-your-own-produce farm.)
Giving discounts for showing a piece of paper that is freely available to the public (especially if the same discount can be received by just saying, “Yeah, I’d like that discount, too.”)
This is definitely not the case for Catholic churches, at least. Guin had it exactly right for that case…hours the rectory is open, what time masses are, any little bits of parish/school news, fundraising appeals, upcoming diocesan events (like Peter’s Pence), and then the back page or two is full of little ads like you’d find on a diner placemat. I spent most Sunday mornings of my childhood poring over the bulletin while trying to stay awake during the homily…
The order of services is in the missal(ette)s in the pews.
Nope. I’m talking about the part where the court said, in dicta, the church bulletin discount would be illegal unless the discount is also extended to those who don’t present their own church bulletin. Thus, we all know that if IHOP provides the discount to everyone upon request, with or without a bulletin, then the discount promotion is legal. If the discount promotion requires a church bulletin, then the discount promotion is illegal discrimination.
I realize that someone asked for a case where the court actually found a violation based upon a church bulletin discount. I don’t have a case like that and I’m not about to search for it. However, I do have the case I cited in this thread. The position of the court is stated in dicta, which is more persuasive legal authority than anything anyone else has offered in this thread.
It is not often that a judicial opinion will exactly match the facts of a given situation, and that opinion is the best indicator of the true status of the law on this issue. I welcome anyone to provide a judicial opinion that refutes the highly persuasive judicial authority I offered.
You don’t know that, Skald. You’re making up facts. All we know is that this particular IHOP, which is probably an independent franchise (i.e., small mom & pop), offers a church bulletin discount. We don’t know whether this IHOP requires a bulletin to get the discount or if anyone can just get the discount, upon request, without the bulletin. We are debating a hypothetical case where the IHOP actually requires the bulletin and refuses the discount without a bulletin.
No I am not. I’m extrapolating from my own experience with restaurants and ballparks in Memphis, but that is not making up facts. I’ll grant that it may be overgeneralizing.
In the first place, others have already spoken of the fact that many (most?) IHop franchisees are quite large operations in and of themselves. Did you miss those posts, or simply disregard them?
In the second place, we can go back & forth all day about imaginary situations. (Hell, most of my IMHO threads are hypotheticals.) But unless you can show situations in which a specific restaurant has refused to honor the church bulletin discount to anyone who asked, you cannot expect to be taken seriously on this issue by persons who have actual contrary experiences.
So your dad discriminates against non-churchgoers?
Honestly, I feel stupider for having read all 5 pages here. If you went to IHOP and said, “I don’t attend church, so I don’t have a bulletin. May I please get the discount anyhow?”, you’re not lying or misrepresneting yourself, you have not inconvenienced yourself, and you just might get some discount pancakes.
We aren’t? I could have sworn we were. The only way there is any legal problem here is if this IHOP identified in the OP refuses the discount to those without a bulletin.
We have no idea if the IHOP identified in the OP honors the discount without a bulletin. So if you say you can get the discount upon request anyway at this IHOP, then you are making up facts. We agree that if this IHOP gives the discount to everyone upon request, then there is no problem.
I must have missed the part about franchises. I’ll go back.
But since you’re talking about an actual restaurant chain, it behooves you to bring up actual incidents. Otherwise it’s as silly as my threads on what the duties of the prophet of Pallas Athena are.
Also, several persons have pointed out that the purpose of the discounts is not to help the churches in the first place. It’s to put asses in seats; it’s to build demand. And it’s to do so in a very cheap fashion. The restaurants don’t have to spend money on printing coupons; they get the churches to do it for them. They build awareness of their brand and give people an incentive to come there on slow days. Thus, even if an atheist like me comes on said day and asks for the discount, it’s in the restaurant’s clear interest to go ahead and give it.
I think this is the problem here. You’re debating a hypothetical. The rest of us are discussing the OP, which specifically *asks *if stuff like this happens where we live.
Yes, hypothetically speaking if a hypothetical IHOP only offered a discount to people holding a church bulletin which required church membership to get, then sure. I think *most *of us would agree that that would be illegal discrimination.
I would like the job of newsletter auditor, to go through all the accumulated church flyers at the end of the day and match them up with all the servers’ checks to make sure every discount given was accompanied by an actual flyer. And any server found to be lax in collecting and cross-documenting each flyer with its accompanying customer check will be discharged with extreme prejudice.
Then I will take all the accumulated flyers and make a graph to show how much business we are getting from each house of worship, and then hire derelicts to put out more handbills to those that are lacking.
WhyNot has already pointed out that the OP addresses an actual situation. But let me add this. Suppose we were considering the question Should the fact that Bill Clinton committed war crimes, following his superiors orders, while serving in Vietnam make him ineligible for a position with the United Nations. The fact that Clinton never served in Vietnam and thus was unable to commit war crimes there renders the whole discussion questionable, I think. Would you agree?
Here’s the OP. I’ve been debating the question “Is that legal?” In response to that question, we found a judicial opinion saying the practice is indeed illegal unless the discount is offered to all patrons upon request. The question became whether it would or should be illegal if the offer was not extended to all patrons upon request.
I might stop at the IHOP in question and ask them what their position is on people who are “unchurched” receiving the discount. I pass by every night when I leave work. (Assuming it’s the Smyrna IHOP and not the Murfreesboro IHOP. Even if it is the M’boro IHOP, it’s not much out of my way).
Brynda - I’ll give you one of my bulletins if you want one. You just missed the “Heart of Mary Wine and Cheese Tasting” event. (Real event, real booze. On church property. Raises money for Vacation Bible School.)
I thought this thread was based on an actual restaurant that offered an actual church flier discount, and how unfair that actual restaurant was.
If we have to add hypothetical extra unfairness to the actual incident to make a hypothetical unfair incident, how is that fair? We could discuss how it would be unfair that Denny’s refused service to Negroes, which would be pretty unfair of them. Except it turns out that in real life Denny’s doesn’t refuse service to Negroes. So what’s the point of discussing a hypothetical unfair situation that doesn’t actually exist?
In my little hole in tennessee, church bulletin discounts aren’t all that uncommon. Needless to say i have a Bulletin file that i printed up for the “first church of wilford brimley” we have “morning mass of oatmeal” "viewing of that part in the thing where wilford beats the hell out of someone, “oatmeal stout” and “diabeetus” i’ve used it to get the discount. No one even really looks at or questions it, except for that one time, and i simply put on my best pious face and told the waiter that it was as real as our lord jesus christ. He laughed and added the discount. They don’t CARE that its bogus, they just want me to spend the 10 bucks for the food.
The restaurant i work at offers free kids meals on a certain night, there are a couple of adults that will come in as a group, and the light eaters will order kids meals (like 1 kids meal to 2 adult meals). sometimes they jokingly ask about the kids night and as their waiter, I’ll drop the kids night discount on the ticket. Then tell them, usually to the tune of a bigger tip. They don’t technically “qualify” for the discount, though their ticket meets all the criteria minus the minors. As far as paperwork, the restaurant, the inventory and the cashier know, everythings kosher.You’d be surprised the discounts that you can get if your creative enough to ask.
(Real event, real booze. On church property. Raises money for Vacation Bible School.)