Other issues aside, is it necessarily the case (from a legal standpoint) that “advantaging” one class of people is necessarily equivalent to disadvantaging another class?
If I get the same, standard service that every member of the general public gets, but someone else gets a discount or bonus, am I being discriminated against?
So you’re whole argument hinges on the fact that on Sunday morning people that choose to attend mass are physically closer to the coupons…really?
As was covered earlier. You don’t have to be of a specific faith to attend mass. You are more then welcome to go to mass as well so you can be just as close, the difference is that you just don’t want to go. I really don’t see how you can claim discrimination. No one is telling you that you can’t do something. It’s not like someone is telling you that you can’t get the AARP discount because you’re not old enough. You’re choosing not to get this discount because you’re acting like a 3 year old that doesn’t want to walk to the kitchen to get his milk, he wants someone to bring it here for him.
But how about answering the question. I’ll even adjust it a bit for you. Let’s say the restaurant was handing out coupons in 10 random public locations around town. You’d still have to drive to one of these locations to get one. It would inconvenience you just as much as if you had to drive to a church to get the coupon.
Ya know what… I’m going to bow out of this one. I assume you’re just going to skirt around this question, a lawyer has already stepped in and said this isn’t discrimination, you’ve already stated very clearly that unless someone is a court judge their opinion carries little weight…and with that, I’m not going to sit here and attempt to change your mind.
Also, the obvious benefit isn’t to give a discount to a protected class, it’s to bring in more customers. I’ll bet if you paid attention the business also runs ads that target other demographics as well.
ETA, this is directed at treis, not Thudlow who snuck in while I was typing.
Yes. I used this example before but say at a restaurant pancakes cost $1,000,003.99. Said restaurant offers a $1,000,000 discount to Jews only. Sure, the general public can go there and pay 1,000,003.99 for their pancakes, but that’s hardly equal access as paying 3.99 would be.
Your whole argument boils down to if those non-church goers would just go to church, they could get cheap pancakes, too.
I like how you cite the lawyer who says this isn’t illegal discrimination while completely disregarding the judge who said it is illegal discrimination.
My whole argument comes down to the fact that people of a certain religion have an advantage in price at this particular restaurant. In this case, the advantage is the restaurant handing out coupons at a convenient location for a particular religion. It doesn’t matter that the general public theoretically could go to the mass. The point is that going to this mass is a hardship on the general public, while it is not for members of the church.
10 random locations is perfectly fine because it does not intentionally disadvantage any particular class. It all comes down to intent and impact. If the action can be construed in a way to purposely give an advantage to a protected class it’s in violation of the Civil Rights Act. There is simply no legal path to shaping your clientele to be of a particular religion, sex, national origin, or color.
Bring in more customers that happen to be of a specific religion. Look, I don’t think iHop or Denny’s are trying to become Christian only establishments. The point of the law is to shut the door on the businesses that try to weasel through any crack.
This is ridiculous.
You can print out church bulletins from the internet for the cost of paper and ink. You don’t need to go to a church service. You do not need to set foot on church property.
You can create your own Church of Pancake and create your own bulletin.
Perhaps you can turn a profit. Hunt for some kind of Satanic church bulletin, or from snake handlers or something rally strange, and see if they refuse it. If they do, you might be able to sue them if you find a friendly lawyer with a sense of humor.
There is a difference between hardship and inconvenience. A hardship would entail more than getting off your couch and going to a church to exclusively get a flyer. If you have to endure insults, threats, or oppression to get flyer, that would be a hardship.
Look, no one is entitled to discount pancakes, just to the right to have pancakes
hardship = burden = inconvenience = cost
It doesn’t matter what word you use.
Is it burdensome to print out a web page?
How does all this work with people that are of faith but don’t go to church, or don’t go to church on Sundays? Are they being discriminated against? ISTM that if this whole thing is about discriminating against people that aren’t religions, we’re adding a lot of religious people into that group.
Why are you all continuing to argue about some imaginary need to go to a church to get a church bulletin? It is simply not necessary.
Not sure about a temple or mosque, but here in the same area as the OP, they have no issue with UU bullitins (you know, where the heathens, Wiccans, Pagans, Gays and Lesbians go to plot the destruction of traditional society :D). Like Skald, I’ve received the discount just for the asking. As he said, it’s getting butts in booths for a Grand Slam.
One of the local newspapers occasionally ran coupons good for a free cookie at the Great Harvest Bread Company. The only way to get one of those coupons was to buy a copy of the paper. Subscribers to the newspaper had an advantage over the general public, who actually had to go out to some place that sold the paper and spend some of their hard-earned money in order to get a free cookie. An obvious case of discrimination against people who preferred to get their news online.
I’d be willing to bet that, a lot of these places, if you went in and told the manager that you weren’t a church-goer, but were wondering about the church bulletin discount, they’d give you the discount anyway. It’s not that they’re specifically trying to encourage religion; they just want to get regular customers who come in for breakfast on a weekly basis. Atheists’ money spends just the same as anyone else’s.
Many businesses have a policy of offering a discount of some percentage to anyone who asks for one. “Pardon me, do you offer a discount for left-handers?” “Sure, that’s 10% off.” The church bulletin deals are probably just a specific example of that.
You can go to many church websites and print the bulletin right from the website. That way you don’t even have to go into the church.
Many churches have reduced the size of the bulletin to save money and be more environmentally friendly. Thus, that leaves less room for the ads.
Let me know when “people who don’t buy newspapers” becomes a protected class under the Civil Rights Act. Only then will you have a point.
This doesn’t affect the legal arguments, but it is noxious to me (and maybe only me) to have to claim–even indirectly–that I attend church to get equal treatment at a business. I don’t think those of you who recommend getting a flyer or even printing a flyer get that. Why would you? I don’t know if this will make sense to you, but I imagine (perhaps wrongly) that some Christians–or Hindus, or Satanists, or Wiccans, or whatever you hold dear–might find having to hand in a flyer from an atheist organization to get equal treatment from a business. I would ask a Christian friend of mine, but she would be insulted by the idea. 
I accept that if the flyers aren’t required for the discount, it doesn’t legally count as discrimination, but that still seems to me to be a run-around the spirit of the law.
Let me know when “people who need to go out of their way to get a coupon” becomes a protected class, then you’ll have a point as well.
No, you have the legal right to “the full and equal enjoyment of the goods”. Paying more for the same product is not full and equal enjoyment. Since the discount is based on a religious class, even if it is a proxy for a religious class, it violates the law.
As has been noted, the big chains will give the discount to anyone who asks, and thus are not in violation of the law. (As demonstrated by a cited case).
It’s been said over and over but you just don’t get it.
You. Don’t. Have. To. Attend. Church. To. Get. The. Discount.
Since it’s so noxious to you, just don’t go there. But there is nothing wrong in what they are doing and I would have no problem with picking up/printing out a bulletin in order to use the discount.
<—Atheist, btw. But a sane one that does not get offended by simply seeing the word “church.”
