[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
Again, I only comment as one who is in the midst of reading his first Dawkins book. However, I think that Spong’s take on it, as represented in what you posted, is quite wrong, and seems like an attempt to minimize many of Dawkins’ key points. I would speculate that the intention was to allow more liberal regious types (as opposed to fundamentalists, perhaps) to feel more comfortable that the stunning critique of religion from people like Dawkins doesn’t really apply to them.
He addresses this in The God Delusion to some degree in a chapter called “What’s wrong with religion? Why be so hostile?” He later equates religion with the “mother of all burkas” - a needlessly restrictive article that limits our ability to perceive the world around us.
This echoes feelings I’ve had since adolescence. Essentially, the world, and human beings, seem to me like marvelous and mysterious things that I want to understand better. It isn’t satisfying to me to attribute the marvelous to some supernatural power - it minimizes the greatness of what we are and what we have in front of us, and allows us to wash our hands of trying to make better sense of it. Why should we bother figuring stuff out if it’s all someone else’s work and we’ll get all the answers when we shuffle off this mortal coil?
[/QUOTE]
I think the point Spong is making is that examining and reevaluating our religion and discarding myth and tradition may leave us with a new more meaningful, more truth based religion rather than none.
Spong doesn’t imply that Dawkins criticisms don’t apply to liberals and moderates. He says
our thinking, not just their thinking. I read it as he accepts some irrationality as part of the search.
The Dawkins quote and your own explanation does refer to more restrictive structured religion. I understand that criticism but not all religion or believers are like that.
The quest for spiritual truth doesn’t explain everything and leave us not bothering to explore. It encourages us to continue to grow and learn, It does celebrate the wonder of who and what we are as we try to understand our nature more clearly.
Not only our individual nature but the nature of our relationship to others.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
The quest for spiritual truth doesn’t explain everything and leave us not bothering to explore. It encourages us to continue to grow and learn, It does celebrate the wonder of who and what we are as we try to understand our nature more clearly.
Not only our individual nature but the nature of our relationship to others.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds good. Is there anything supernatural about it?
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
Sounds good. Is there anything supernatural about it?
[/QUOTE]
Ultimately no. Just things we don’t understand yet. Is it embracing the supernatural to entertain the idea of reincarnation, or that our consciousness survives the physical body?
Hopefully we relegate those questions to the “I don’t know and that’s okay” category, as we learn that what our journey is really about is dealing with and making the most of this moment, whatever it brings.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Ultimately no. Just things we don’t understand yet.
[/quote]
Then we are in accord.
In my opinion, yes. If you aren’t asserting that these things exist, I’m still in agreement with you.
I largely agree, although I’m comfortable saying something more along the lines of “Based on what I do know, it’s very unlikely that (X) exists.” However, I don’t feel compelled to go about assigning probability estimates to everything.
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
Then we are in accord. In my opinion, yes. If you aren’t asserting that these things exist, I’m still in agreement with you.I largely agree, although I’m comfortable saying something more along the lines of “Based on what I do know, it’s very unlikely that (X) exists.” However, I don’t feel compelled to go about assigning probability estimates to everything.
[/QUOTE]
Groovy…{thats right…I said groovy}
Voyager made a great point a while back about believing provisionally which has stuck with me. If in awe of the great variety of life on this planet we find that others lean in a different direction, that’s usually fine. It’s part of what makes life so interesting. It’s when people start insisting what they can’t really know is true, not only for them but for everybody else that the problems start.
So, if you say, I don’t really think so, and I say “I’d like to think so” but we both admit we don’t really know, and maybe just as important, don’t need to know to make the most of the moment at hand, we get along just fine.
I agree with the OP, there is nothing more bothersome than a fundamental theist or atheist detailing the glories of their belief system. In reality the atheists have no more proof they are right than the theists.
I always suspect those doing the most talking are just trying to convince themselves they are right.
I agree with the OP, there is nothing more bothersome than a fundamental theist or atheist detailing the glories of their belief system. In reality the atheists have no more proof they are right than the theists.
I always suspect those doing the most talking are just trying to convince themselves they are right.
[/QUOTE]
The difference being that atheists don’t base their life (or death) on something they can’t prove.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
In reality the atheists have no more proof they are right than the theists.
[/QUOTE]
I think this is simply untrue. It simply depends on the claim being made. For example, if it is in terms of creationism versus evolution, there is scads of proof that the person arguing the side of evolution is right.
Since, in my opinion, atheists are operating from an empirical standpoint, it would be more true to say that the entirety of what they are basing judgments on is “proof.”
I agree with the OP, there is nothing more bothersome than a fundamental theist or atheist detailing the glories of their belief system. In reality the atheists have no more proof they are right than the theists.
I always suspect those doing the most talking are just trying to convince themselves they are right.
[/QUOTE]
Every time I flip through the channels I can’t help passing several preachers giving their own slant on our sinful nature and how man has fallen and how we need to embrace their idea of Jesus and salvation.
I think Dawkins, Harris and others are just bringing a little balance to the discussion. Harris makes the point that religious belief systems have a very real and too often negative affect on the lives of those who don’t share those beliefs. I think it’s about dam time somebody made a point to actively present the other side of the coin so that people can consider the alternatives. If someone has been bothersome in glorifying their pwn belief systems the theists are ahead by a few thousand miles. I think the reason Dawkins and Harris are getting press is because 1. it creates controversy 2. lots of people are sick of the one sided conversation.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I think they do, what if the Christians are right.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly how do you figure that? They don’t plan their lives for an afterlife because they don’t believe one exists. They don’t live to serve a “master.” Can you give me an example?
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
I think this is simply untrue. It simply depends on the claim being made. For example, if it is in terms of creationism versus evolution, there is scads of proof that the person arguing the side of evolution is right.
Since, in my opinion, atheists are operating from an empirical standpoint, it would be more true to say that the entirety of what they are basing judgments on is “proof.”
[/QUOTE]
The Intelligent Design side puts up a very good argument also.
Show me some empirical evidence there is no God. How would you do that?
Actually theists, at least some of them base their beliefs on personal experience. Which for them is plenty proof enough.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Every time I flip through the channels I can’t help passing several preachers giving their own slant on our sinful nature and how man has fallen and how we need to embrace their idea of Jesus and salvation.
I think Dawkins, Harris and others are just bringing a little balance to the discussion. Harris makes the point that religious belief systems have a very real and too often negative affect on the lives of those who don’t share those beliefs. I think it’s about dam time somebody made a point to actively present the other side of the coin so that people can consider the alternatives. If someone has been bothersome in glorifying their pwn belief systems the theists are ahead by a few thousand miles. I think the reason Dawkins and Harris are getting press is because 1. it creates controversy 2. lots of people are sick of the one sided conversation.
[/QUOTE]
You are saying something like: two wrongs make a right. I don’t buy into that.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Exactly how do you figure that? They don’t plan their lives for an afterlife because they don’t believe one exists. They don’t live to serve a “master.” Can you give me an example?
[/QUOTE]
Atheists are living their lives as if Christians are wrong about God and the after life. Since there is no proof either way, they are living their faith just as the Christian lives His.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not a Christian, nor do I belong to any religion. But I would like to get people thinking honestly about their beliefs. That is the only way to reality.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Atheists are living their lives as if Christians are wrong about God and the after life. Since there is no proof either way, they are living their faith just as the Christian lives His.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not a Christian, nor do I belong to any religion. But I would like to get people thinking honestly about their beliefs. That is the only way to reality.
[/QUOTE]
Atheists don’t have faith. That’s kind of the point.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I never said there isn’t one. All I’m saying is that there’s no reason to think one exists.
[/QUOTE]
Theists, including me, believe there is a reason to believe God exists.
So, what is in order here is tolerance, I am not bothered by Atheists beliefs at all. There is room in this world for all beliefs as long as we respect each other as human beings.
