[QUOTE=lekatt]
Faith is believing in something you can’t prove, and that is exactly what Atheists do.
[/QUOTE]
Do we need to have another of those 10 page “Is Atheism a religion?” threads again?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
The Intelligent Design side puts up a very good argument also.
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We’ve already dealt with this a million times. No, they don’t. Their argument is simply awful.
I don’t have to. You show me any evidence that there is one.
No, because personal experience is often wildly biased or confused. That’s one reason empiricism is so useful: because it doesn’t rely on any one person’s judgment, but instead averages out over many many people coupled with a critical eye to ways in which people jump too easily to conclusions.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Faith is believing in something you can’t prove, and that is exactly what Atheists do.
[/QUOTE]
Nope. We don’t believe. Not the same thing as having faith that there is no God. If you define atheism differently, fine, but then you are still faced with people like us, who do not believe.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Faith is believing in something you can’t prove, and that is exactly what Atheists do.
[/QUOTE]
lekatt, you’re wrong. You couldn’t be more wrong. Atheists don’t “believe in” anything. Pay attention.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Atheists are living their lives as if Christians are wrong about God and the after life. Since there is no proof either way, they are living their faith just as the Christian lives His.
[/QUOTE]
We also live our lives as if Islam were wrong, and Judaism and Hinduism, and Shintoism, and belief in Isis and Osiris, and cargo cultism. But I assure you, it takes no time at all to disbelieve all those things.
BTW, this kind of argument is where the IPU came from, since now we could ask lekatt why he doesn’t believe in the IPU. But I won’t.
[blatant hijack] Since lekatt is back I just have to share this.
A friend of mine died week before last. After the funeral his wife recounted a story. It seems that a couple days before he died an instructor nurse and three or four student nurses were in his room.
He casually said to them, “I saw the light.”
They all pricked up their ears and gathered around.
Him, “Yeah, there was this long tunnel or hallway and down at the end there was this bright red light that filled the space.”
Them, “Don’t mean white light?”
Him, “No it was bright red and there were all these flames too.”[/blatant hijack]
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
lekatt, you’re wrong. You couldn’t be more wrong. Atheists don’t “believe in” anything. Pay attention.
[/QUOTE]
Of course they believe in something – no God. It is impossible to not believe, not belief is a belief. Choice to not believe in God is still a choice. Still a belief.
But I will quit that line of reasoning to be civil if you wish. Facing truth takes courage and some semantic meandering. Have it your way, if you wish.
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
[blatant hijack] Since lekatt is back I just have to share this.
A friend of mine died week before last. After the funeral his wife recounted a story. It seems that a couple days before he died an instructor nurse and three or four student nurses were in his room.
He casually said to them, “I saw the light.”
They all pricked up their ears and gathered around.
Him, “Yeah, there was this long tunnel or hallway and down at the end there was this bright red light that filled the space.”
Them, “Don’t mean white light?”
Him, “No it was bright red and there were all these flames too.”[/blatant hijack]
[/QUOTE]
Funny, thanks for sharing.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Of course they believe in something – no God. It is impossible to not believe, not belief is a belief. Choice to not believe in God is still a choice. Still a belief.
[/QUOTE]
While I agree that to a certain extent atheism requires a base level of belief that the universe is as it appears, it’s very different from the faith of a believer. A believer looks at the world and says “There’s not enough evidence to prove God exists, but I believe it anyway”. The atheist looks at the world and says “There’s not enough evidence to prove God exists, so I won’t”. No leap of faith there. I also very much disagree with your suggestion that belief is a choice. I can no more choose to believe in God than a Christian can choose to believe otherwise. You can force yourself to act as though God does or doesn’t exist, but you can’t change your beliefs just on a whim.
If you believe you can, i’d ask you to try it.
::: sigh :::
[QUOTE=lekatt]
The Intelligent Design side puts up a very good argument also.
Show me some empirical evidence there is no God. How would you do that?
Actually theists, at least some of them base their beliefs on personal experience. Which for them is plenty proof enough.
[/QUOTE]
I think so too. I base my own beliefs upon my own personal experiences. The difference is that I don’t claim my beliefs are the correct ones for everyone else, or that people who don’t believe the same are damed in some way.
Subjective experiences that cannot be validated with hard evidence are not a good basis for laws that affect the lives of others. Since enough theists are interested in doing just that it seems only right that those who don’t agree should call them on it and make them defend the beliefs they want to push on others, don’t you think?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I think they do, what if the Christians are right.
[/QUOTE]
Which Christians would that be exactly since a whole bunch of them don’t agree with each other? Do I get to choose which Christians are right as long as I adopt the basic label?
No wait…Jesus said that wasn’t cool!
[QUOTE=lekatt]
You are saying something like: two wrongs make a right. I don’t buy into that.
[/QUOTE]
Nope
I’m saying I support free speech for both sides. There’s nothing* wrong* about people expressing their beliefs.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Theists, including me, believe there is a reason to believe God exists.
So, what is in order here is tolerance, I am not bothered by Atheists beliefs at all. There is room in this world for all beliefs as long as we respect each other as human beings.
[/QUOTE]
We can disagree and be vocal about it and still be tolerant and respectful. For the most part the problem has been that too many Christians want to make their beliefs into law and violate the separation clause. They may see that as “doing good” but pushing your religion on others, even if you think they need it, has it’s consequences.
One is having to defend those beliefs.
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
::: sigh :::
[/QUOTE]
S’matter Tom, lost your whistle? 
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
We can disagree and be vocal about it and still be tolerant and respectful. For the most part the problem has been that too many Christians want to make their beliefs into law and violate the separation clause. They may see that as “doing good” but pushing your religion on others, even if you think they need it, has it’s consequences.
One is having to defend those beliefs.
[/QUOTE]
Eer, ah, um, there is no “separation clause.” The only mention in the body of the Constitution is that there shall be no religious test for office. In the amendments it merely says that Congress shall make no law …, which I think is since been extended to the states. It says nothing about religion not interfering with government.
The Constitution is a secular document which, I think, is the basis for Jefferson’s statement that he believed that it raised a “wall of separation” between church and state. I think the history of religious governments shows that such a wall generally is a good thing.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
While I agree that to a certain extent atheism requires a base level of belief that the universe is as it appears, it’s very different from the faith of a believer. A believer looks at the world and says “There’s not enough evidence to prove God exists, but I believe it anyway”. The atheist looks at the world and says “There’s not enough evidence to prove God exists, so I won’t”. No leap of faith there. I also very much disagree with your suggestion that belief is a choice. I can no more choose to believe in God than a Christian can choose to believe otherwise. You can force yourself to act as though God does or doesn’t exist, but you can’t change your beliefs just on a whim.
If you believe you can, i’d ask you to try it.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, you can change your beliefs anytime you really want to do so. I really don’t think belief in God gets you any points, nor disbelief loses any points for you. It is just a preference. In the end only truth matters. What I think and/or what you think is immaterial to the reality of truth. What is, will happen at the end of our lives. I believe in a higher intelligence because I had an experience with such, it is just that simple for me. We humans sweat the small stuff all the time, and ignore the chances to learn more because of our prejudices.
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
Eer, ah, um, there is no “separation clause.” The only mention in the body of the Constitution is that there shall be no religious test for office. In the amendments it merely says that Congress shall make no law …, which I think is since been extended to the states. It says nothing about religion not interfering with government.
The Constitution is a secular document which, I think, is the basis for Jefferson’s statement that he believed that it raised a “wall of separation” between church and state. I think the history of religious governments shows that such a wall generally is a good thing.
[/QUOTE]
Correct. I meant to say, the establishment clause. A subtle but significant difference.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Yes, you can change your beliefs anytime you really want to do so.
[/QUOTE]
Prove it. For the next 168 hours, believe that there is no afterlife.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Yes, you can change your beliefs anytime you really want to do so.
[/QUOTE]
Well, I can change my briefs anytime I want to. I really doubt anyone can just decide to believe differently and it just happens. We can declare we really believe x and insist but that doesn’t make it so. I think the process of exploring your own beliefs and looking at and considering other options may bring about some changes. It sure has for me. That is a process that takes place over time. I wouldn’t really call it a conscious choice.
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Prove it. For the next 168 hours, believe that there is no afterlife.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t really want to do so.