I’ve said again and again that if the OP in fact gave the tailgater a reasonable and prompt chance to pass, then my opinion would be different. And I realize that he kinda claimed in a later post that the tailgater did have such a chance. IMHO he’s not telling the truth on that point. Feel free to disagree.
As far as your self-defense hypothetical goes, it’s not “clear-cut” to me that the OP gave the tailgater a reasonable chance to pass. I concede that there is room for debate on this point.
Gimme a break – you’re the one who’s weaseling here. Let me repeat the exchange in all its glory:
Sez I:
Sez You:
Sez I:
Sez You:
Sez I:
Sez You:
Sez I:
Sez You:
Clearly you were pretending that I had argued something different from what I actually did. And I note that you continue to weasel on this point.
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Agree. And as I’ve said repeatedly, if the tailgater had a prompt and reasonable opportunity to pass, my opinion would be different.
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That’s true in the sense that the OP’s reaction can’t change the underlying facts. But the fact that the OP enjoyed things suggests a different set of facts. It’s human nature to enjoy the situation when you are in control and making the bad guy suffer. It’s less enjoyable when you are not in control and simply being stalked.
I see that you did post your mathematical argument. I will take a look at it later.
lucwarm, I implore you to abandon the Perry Mason routine. I’ve known rottweilers that were less tenacious as you.
Yes, there are indeed stretches of highway where it is unsafe to pull over ANYWHERE for miles and miles. You want specifics? The entire length of KY SR 461 once you get past 150, which is approximately 20 miles long and connects I-75 (at the Renfro Valley exit) to Hwy 90 in Somerset, KY. I cannot tell you how many times we’ve been stuck behind tractors or people pulling their big old boats on our way to Lake Cumberland, KY.
Happily, five or so years ago when they re-paved the road, they also blew out the sides of mountains in exactly 2 places so that slower moving tractors and people pulling yachts can pull over to allow the other traffic to pass. However, prior to that, you had to either risk life and limb crossing the double yellow or just deal with the fact that you were not going anywhere fast. There being either the side of a mountain or a 15-50 foot drop off on the sides.
Now if you wanted to go to Lake Cumberland via Tennessee via SR 27, there still aren’t any pull-over lanes. If you looked on a map it looks like a pretty straight, servicable road. It’s not. You’d find yourself on a narrow, winding 2-lane mountain road for approximately 40 miles, with no good place to pull over AT ALL. Been there. Done that. Of course we didn’t have an asshole behind us that time. Our oldest daughter was vomiting all over the place from carsickness. When I tell you that there was no good place to pull over, that’s exactly what I mean.
OF COURSE there is an occasional driveway. However, if you had a lick of common sense, and perhaps you don’t, let me advise you that you don’t pull into the driveway of a home that has its Confederate flag flapping proudly outside and get the dogs all a-yapping in the middle of the night unless you are in the midst of an actual emergency. Even then, it doesn’t hurt to be personally related to that person, so that you can be reasonably assured that they will overlook your combined aggregious sins of driving a Toyota (Japanese. As in NOT American) van with Ohio (Yankee) plates in the middle of God’s country. You thought the Civil War was won 100 years ago? Trust me. It was not. And you don’t pull into the driveways of rednecks for no good reason if you know what’s good for you. Because they don’t have much, you can be guaranteed that they WILL have: a) a Ford truck; b) a gun rack complete with rifle; and c) a chip on their shoulder.
Welcome to rural America.
Next lesson: Actual places in America where there are no gas stations for 60 miles.
What happens if a police car wants to pull someone over?
What happens if an ambulance needs to pass you?
What happens if a car breaks down? Is the traffic behind it stuck for a couple hours until a tow truck can come from the other direction?
Originally posted by PunditLisa
lucwarm, I implore you to abandon the Perry Mason routine. I’ve known rottweilers that were less tenacious as you.
I also, earlier in this thread, posted some specifics of where there were roads with NO place to pull over. I won’t tell you what would happen, I’ll tell you what DOES in fact happen, at least on Alaskan roads.
The emergency response people direct traffic through one lane, while keeping on -coming traffic stopped. When a certain number of one lane has passed the accident or breakdown, the authorities then allow the other direction to go for a bit.
Your whole argument in this thread seems based on a desire to justify the actions of tailgaters, and to disallow any response on the part of the tailgatee, unless it’s something YOU think is an appropriate response.
Your opinion about what should be done is unrealistic, unsafe, and unsupported by most, not only in this thread, but by what is recommended by authorities.
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Dude, we need to get you out of the city every now and then. If a police car wants to pull someone over (and you’d have to be pulling a major Andretti for them to pull you over on a 2-lane mountain road), the lead car slows down (to assure the policeman he’s not trying to outrun him). Then what usually happens is that the policeman waves the lead driver on until they have come to a point where they can pull over. This can be 10 feet or 10 miles. You just keep driving until you can pull over safely.
Re ambulances. In the 30+ years of going down to the lake for the weekend, I have never once seen an ambulance on a rural road. One time I was vacationing at Lake Norris, TN (also in East Bufu) and the woman I was with went into diabetic shock in the middle of the night. We called 911 (which actually worked; believe it or not, there are also places in the United States that don’t have 911) and waited 45 minutes for an ambulance. It never showed up. We called back and the operator informed us that they couldn’t find our house and could we please drive the woman (who was recovering thanks to the efforts of her brother-in-law) to the nearest major intersection? But if an ambulance needed to get by on a 2-lane road, you’d slow down and the ambulance would cross the double yellow (if there is one) and hope that anyone coming the other way can see/hear them.
That’s exactly what you do. On winding roads, they’ll put up flares to warn anyone coming around the bend that there’s an accident.
I’ve actually been on I-75 (a major north/south hwy that runs from Canada to Florida) and been stuck for hours. When you’re in the mountains with no exit in sight, you simply wait until the wreck is cleaned up and/or investigated. This particular time we were all out of our cars chatting to the people in the other cars. About 2 hours later, we got moving again.
For the record, I HATE tailgaters and I think tailgating is a scummy thing to do. I think it’s partially (but only partially) excusable when the tailgater has a bona fide and important reason to get somewhere in a hurry; is in a distressed state emotionally; and is not given a reasonable opportunity to pass by the car in front.
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My opinion is that between allowing the tailgater to pass and impeding him, the former is the appropriate response.
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Generally speaking I disagree. It’s virtually always possible to allow the car behind you to pass.
I wonder if any of the posters here would dare impede a police car or an ambulance and try to argue later in court that they could not safely allow the vehicle to pass. You might ask yourself how a judge would respond to some of the explanations that have been offered in this thread.
And nobody dares to cross the double-yellow to pass the breakdown? I call BS.
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Which section of I-75 was that? Is it barrier-divided?
Yep. This also happened to me, coming down on the 41 from Yosemite. The 41 is mountain road with just one lane going each way. There are some turn-outs on this road but apparently that didn’t help in this case. Just south of the Mariposa Grove Entrance, a little north of the small town of Coarsegold, someone had a fatal car crash. A long string of cars departing Yosemite (and surrounding areas) discovered that we were suddenly stuck in a dark mountain road for at least an hour, if not more. Nowhere to go, nothing to do. Just stuck.
I foolishly did not turn off my car (nor the headlights) for most of this wait, which allowed my car’s already shaky electrical system to drain the car battery. I drove the rest of the way home with increasingly fading headlights. Yeah. That was fun.
**Let me get this straight. I point out your lie, the one about how I ignored your argument regarding all the cars not passing our beloved OP. As a counter, you trot out an exchange where I directly answer this point, thereby proving my contention. Sez you, sez I, indeed. Thanks for clearing that up, Señor Weasel. You are quite the debater.
Right. It would be completely crazy to think the guy was happy just being able to show that asshole that he wouldn’t give in by speeding up, that he would not be intimidated. That’s just silly. Only your interpretation–the one that is directly contradicted by the guy who was there–only your assessment can possibly be true. You’ve convinced me.
Slowing to the incredibly slow speed of 15 mph WAS “allowing the tailgater to pass” he,the tailgater, simply chose not to. And as to your silly argument that there might be cases where it’s WAY to unsafe to pass even at 15 mph, if the road conditions are that bad, the tailgater is being unsafe by wanting to pass and speed up even more.
You still haven’t seemed to have gotten it through your head that, yes, there ARE many stretches of road where it’s impossible to “pull over”.
You disagree? The proof of what I just said is both in this thread, and in law enforcement “public announcements”. Regarding your second sentence above, that’s precisely the point we’ve been trying to get through to you. Slowing to a crawl IS the signal and “allowance” to the car behind you to pass.
Asked and answered. Slowing down, in such conditions as described in the OP, IS your asked for “allowing someone to pass”.
Unlike the tailgater in the OP, a cop on a rural road, with NO place for cars to pull over, would have enough sense to GO AROUND. Not only that, but oncoming cars would slow as well.
Originally posted by PunditLisa
But yet earlier in this thread you were defending the “poor” tailgaiter’s right to have the inability to “break the law” and unsafely cross the yellow line.
You can’t have it both ways. Either people “can” cross the yellow line when necessary, or they can’t. You can’t give the tailgater the right to be “too law abiding, or safe” to cross it, and then question others’ rights to do the same should they so choose.
Of course some people will dare to cross the double yellow if it’s passable and reasonably safe. If it’s not safe (e.g. the accident happened right before a hairpin turn), you sit and wait if for no other reason than because you don’t leave a fellow human being stranded on a dark, winding road. This is the country, after all.
Remember that Kentucky is the beginning of the Appalachian mountains. They highway is basically carved out of these mountains and they create a flat spot by literally blasting a piece of the mountain away. On some stretches of 75, there isn’t room for both directions on one mountain so north and south will reside on sister mountains, with a huge valley in between. So, yes, it’s a divided highway, with a 100 foot drop separating north from south. A guardrail prevents cars from plummeting to their untimely demise.
This particular wreck occurred on such a stretch. Specifically, it was I-75 north in Kentucky between the Corinth and Sadieville exits. The reasons it took so long to clear the wreck were: 1) because the ambulance and fire trucks had to enter from the northernmost exit (Corinth) and travel south on I-75 north using the shoulder; and 2) there was a fatality and they had to extract the bodies and then do an on-scene investigation (take pictures of the accident site as well as measure skid marks, etc.). Our friendly Kentucky state troopers prevented anyone from passing while this was going on. And the reason I know this is because we got out and yakked with the trucker next to us. (If you’re ever stuck in a similar traffic jam, make friends with a trucker. They have radios and can tell you what the problem is, where the problem is, and whether there is an alternate route nearby.)
Ummm, I ain’t lying here. Let me ask you this (and I really would appreciate an answer)
Does the following statement refer to an argument about the tailgater passing or about other cars passing?
Note that his happiness seemed to derive in part from him slowing down.
And let me repeat my previous question in case you missed it:
Does the following statement refer to an argument about the tailgater passing or about other cars passing?
Interesting that none of the folks who were also stuck behind the OP decided to pass both in one shot.
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I have no idea what your point is here.
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Why don’t you identify and describe a few?
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Why don’t you cite a few public announcements then? Remember, they have to show that MY ADVICE is unsafe and unrealistic. If you go attacking strawmen, I’ll be quick to point it out.
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If the OP had indicated in the OP that he had slowed to 5 mph and wondered why the tailgater didn’t pass him, I’d agree with you. But he didn’t and I don’t. It’s also interesting that none of the folks who were also stuck behind the OP decided to pass both in one shot.
**Well, since you asked nicely, it was a snide, offhand comment tossed out in response to your previous flippant remarks. Don’t read too much into it. And since we’re clearing the air here, is there any other way to interpret this comment…
**…other than that you are stating I have not previously repsonded to this point?
Slowing him down momentarily, even if it produces a cheap thrill, is not the same as preventing him from passing for 20+ minutes.
I have no idea what your point is here – maybe you can start by showing me where I described the tailgater as “poor.”
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I’m not sure what your point is, but I’ll note that if somebody is going at the right speed, it’s difficult or impossible to safely pass them, even if you’re completely willing to break the law. If somebody is going at a different speed, it might be easy to pass them, although still illegal. Will you concede this obvious point?
I gather you concede that the answer to my question is that your statement refers to an argument different from the one I actually made. i.e. you were ignoring my argument. I suppose it might be more accurate to say that you were misrepresenting my argument.
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Yes – after I explained why your response was weak, you didn’t respond at first, and later misrepresented my argument when I pushed the matter. This is why I accused you of ignoring my argument. Although as noted above, it might be more accurate to say that you misrepresented it.
That’s interesting, but given your description of the road, it seems to me your experience there is basically irrelevant to the issues here.