**No, I do not concede that. I summarized an argument that you have made multiple times in this very thread. I may have, in the “You sez, I sez” sequence you outlined, mistakenly committed a non sequitur by pulling in an argument you made that was not quite in play at the moment. Frankly, I was just trying to bust your balls.
I did not misrepresent your argument. I paraphrased an argument to which you seem quite affectionately attached. Unfortunately for you, there’s just no way to sync “You ignored my argument A” with a previous quote where I directly addressed argument A. You can spin this as much as you’d like, but I would suggest, “Oops, I probably misstated that” as a more serviceable alternative.
Doesn’t change the fact that I was clearly referring to argument A, and you pretended I was referring to argument B. You claim it was a mistake, but I notice that you seem to have abandoned trying to actually argue the issue.
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I referred to argument A, and you answered a different argument. Seems like misrepresentation to me. But if you want to say that you ignored my argument by mistake, it don’t change the fact that you ignored it in that post (even if you did respond to it at a different point).
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Umm, you ignored my argument at that particular point in the thread. (AFTER I explained why your response was so weak.) Note that I did NOT say “You never addressed this argument” or “you have completely ignored my argument”
You referred to a DIFFERENT argument. Thus, I reasonably referred to my argument as the one you had ignored.
But here’s a suggestion: Why not quit your weaseling, give up on your meta-debate, and admit that (1) my argument is a good one; and (2) your response was pretty weak?
I keep meaning to get a license plate frame that says:
“I brake for tailgaters”
If someone comes up behind me like that, I give em a few seconds to back off to a normal distance. If they don’t, I gently tap the brakelights. If that doesn’t get the point across - fuck em.
Had this happen on the 5 south Sunday. Middle of fucking nowhere, I’m in the slow lane but HAPPEN to be going faster than the minivan next to me in the fast lane. Some fuckwit comes up behind ME, gets right on my tail, and brights me. I paced the van.
I feel I have every right to do that. First of all, I WAS IN THE SLOW LANE. Second, there doesn’t need to be a second, I was in the slow lane. I’m very sorry that the fast lane was slower, blame the minivan, not me. And any asshole who thinks he’s going to intimidate me into letting him zoom by at 90 mph after he’s been such an asshole has another thing coming. I’ve been known to pace trucks for a good 10 miles for that kind of behavior.
I’ve completely given up any attempt to reason with lucwarm, who appears to have way more at stake in this argument than I can even comprehend, which is why I’ve not been back here, but I would like to note that rather serendipitously I had a chance to test his theory today.
On my way this morning to a job interview on a rural road where the speed limit is 55 but most people travel at 60, I came upon a convoy of cars. At the lead was a pickup truck pulling a trailer with something-or-other loaded on it (equal in height to the bed of the truck, so it did not impede visibility of the driver). Then a car, an SUV, a minivan, another car, and in front of me was the cab part of an 18-wheeler towing warehouse loader (like the ones you see at Home Depot). All of us were tooling along at the top speed of the pickup truck… 35 mph.
Broad daylight, no clouds, sun was high up so no excuses of “the sun was in my eyes.” No turnoffs or driveways or patches of dirt for the pickup to pull over to. Double yellow line, although the road was straight for long stretches with clear visibility. Not one car moved to pass the pickup. My reasoning was pretty solid- with the poor pickup of my engine, I can safely pass one, maybe two cars, max- no way was I going to risk passing six. But how about the folks in front? They’d been behind this guy for longer than I had, they knew that he could only go so fast. Visibility was great, and there was little traffic in the other lane. The only thing stopping them was a double yellow line. But everyone followed along like good little sheep until the next intersection, a good almost 10 miles, when the pickup truck turned off. Then they all picked up speed and we went tooling along at 60 the rest of the way into town. Good thing I had factored in plenty of time to get to my interview.
Amusingly, after the guy turned off the road, in the other lane came a convoy of two tractors, a minivan and two cars going a similar slow speed (the tractors can only go so fast, after all). The tractors don’t even take up a whole lane, and they always travel far to the right, yet not one of the cars were attempting to pass. Hmmm.
Um, been following this thread and I can’t help but notice a disconcerting similarity between lucwarm’s “debating” tactics and those of another poster who has driven more than one poster on this board to fits of exasperation.
Originally posted by CanvasShoes
Slowing to the incredibly slow speed of 15 mph WAS “allowing the tailgater to pass” he,the tailgater, simply chose not to.
Most folks won’t double pass. It’s up to the FIRST guy to do so. Of course IF the moron had passed, the OP would have resumed the speed limit, as it was the tailgater’s unsafe driving practices that had caused the slowdown in the first place.
quote:
the tailgater is being unsafe by wanting to pass and speed up even more.
Earlier in this thread you were trying to support your opinion by claiming that the tailgater had a valid reason for not passing on the double yellow, either he was a “law-abiding citizen” and/or he was supposedly “being a safe driver” by not passing in a potentially dangerous to pass at 15 mph area.
My point is that his zooming up on someone at a high speed, and then staying on their bumper with their bright lights on, belies BOTH of your arguments, the tailgater was OBVIOUSLY being neither safe, nor law-abiding. A point that’s already been made, and made well by several other posters.
quote:
You still haven’t seemed to have gotten it through your head that, yes, there ARE many stretches of road where it’s impossible to “pull over”.
As I stated in the post which you quote here, I already DID, as have others. But since you seem incapable of retaining information, I’ll repeat it for you.
The stretch of road “in the pass” north of Wasilla/Palmer, Alaska contains several stretches of road that fit this description, including several where there is construction and it’s down to one lane with a pilot car only.
The stretch of road southeast of Fairbanks to Delta Junction, it’s a two hour drive, there are several stretches of 10 miles or more where there is a river on one side and rock cliffs on the other, and a frost heaved, earthquake damaged ancient road in between.
Moose Pass Alaska, for about 10 miles north of the 'town" until you enter the “city” limit. From Moose Pass south to the town of Seward, until about 15 miles north of Seward.
Fort Yukon Alaska, the entire base has roads like that. From Kenai to Nikiski Alaska, about 10 miles.
quote:
The proof of what I just said is both in this thread, and in law enforcement “public announcements”.
I didn’t say that public service announcements said YOUR advice was unsafe, I said that they, as WELL as what others in this thread have said (notice you conveniently ignored that), supported that the safe thing to do was what those of us have been saying, that of SLOWING DOWN when tailated. Don’t get cute and try twisting what others say.
quote:
Slowing to a crawl IS the signal and “allowance” to the car behind you to pass.
Fifteen mph is plenty slow, the man was an imbecile and a jerk for not taking the opportunity so obviously handed to him. As to why others didn’t double pass? Asked and answered above.
lucwarm, there really are roads where it is not physically possible to pull over to the side. Really. There are.
Most of these roads tend to be on the sides of mountains, where, as I hope you can imagine, there isn’t a lot of room for road. Most, if not all, of these are two lanes (one lane for each direction). On one side, there is a gaurd rail keeping you from plummeting over, and on the other side, there’s a mountain.
There are sometimes turnouts on these mountain roads, but there are no guarantees. If you happen to break down at a point on the road that isn’t near a turnout, than that’s it, you’re stuck there. The cars behind you will either have to go around you (crossing the double yellow), or sit there and wait.
Or worse, if there is an accident which happens to cover both lanes, that that’s it, traffic in both directions will be screwed.
In Southern California, there is a highway called The Angeles Crest (Hwy 2). This highway fits the description of a mountain-side road. Here is a picture showing what a small portion of the highway looks like. From that picture, you can see a turnout (not very big), but further down the road, you can see the turnout fading into the main road, and that now there is either gaurd rail or mountain on either side.
You can’t have it both ways. Either people “can” cross the yellow line when necessary, or they can’t. You can’t give the tailgater the right to be “too law abiding, or safe” to cross it, and then question others’ rights to do the same should they so choose.
My point is, that earlier in this thread, you were attempting to prove part of your opinion as fact, by implying that the tailgater was being impeded by the OP due to the tailgater’s either obeying the double yellow line, and/or him being unwilling to risk a “dangerous” road condition. Then you turn around and claim BS on others doing the same, that is their not being willing to crosws a double yellow line.
If you can claim that your tailgater was so law-abiding that HE wouldn’t do it, then you can’t then turn around, call BS, and claim that other drivers wouldn’t also adhere to the “magic” no crossing line.
Of course I’ll concede that there’s a speed which would make it easy for someone to pass, and 15 mph, is WELL within that range.
Pardon me, but have you MET automobiles? You may be a lawyer, but based on your posts you seem to have no knowledge regarding cars and their operation, and the physics and mechanics involved.
IANAL, but I’ve been driving for more than 35 years, have worked in the auto mechanics industry, and other mechanics operations industries. 15 mph, is not an unsafe speed at which to pass, in most conditions.
And in the conditions under which the OP was driving? It certainly would have afforded MORE opportunity for the tailgater to pass than the 30 mph he was orginally going.
You keep changing your story. First you said he should have stopped. Then, when given perfectly acceptable reasons why this wasn’t a good idea, you decided upon a number that YOU deemed an acceptable speed which wouldn’t, in your words “impede” the tailgater from passing.
Despite the information and expertise from several other posters, you’ve decided, likely so that you can defend your right to slam the OP, that your magic number of 5mph, or below is the ONLY acceptable number, aside from stopping.
You have no facts or figures to support this figure, just your own definition of and I paraphrase what you said earlier “I consider 5 or so mph to be ‘crawling’ not 15”.
So, you arbitrarily, and just based on your “definition” of the word “crawling” decided that 5 mph fits that term, but 15 doesn’t. The silliest thing is, that you have no reason, other than to diss the OP, for clinging so strenuously to your POV.
Under normal conditions where the lead car is going 5-10 mph below the speed limit, I would agree. But if the OP was really going less than half the speed limit, and it was as painfully easy to pass him some folks here seem to be suggesting, most people would find it in themselves to pass both cars in one shot.
See, one can’t have it both ways – if it’s just as easy to pass the OP as if he were at a dead stop, then it would be only slightly harder for those behind the tailgater to pass both cars.
Now you’re being ridiculous. Kindly show me where I used the phrases “law-abiding citizen” and “being a safe driver” to describe the tailgater.
And let me ask you this – will you concede that tailgating situations frequently arise where the lead car is going only a little bit under the speed limit and the tailgater is basically stuck? Or are you claiming that each and every tailgater could promptly pass the car in front of him if he wanted to?
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How many lanes are there in each direction at this point?
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How many lanes are there in each direction at this point?
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Here’s what you said:
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It seems to me that you’re the one who is twisting here.
If you concede that there are situations where a tailgater cannot pass no matter how little respect he has for the law, then there’s no contradiction.
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Yep, have lots of experience with automobiles. Since folks keep mentioning my profession, I’ll point out that as a lawyer, I also have a lot of experience with the bllsht stories that people cook up to dodge responsibility for their (mis)conduct. In short, people lie to me all day long and I know a lie when I hear one. I believe that the OP was in effect lying when he wondered why the tailgater didn’t pass him. I believe the OP knows exactly why the tailgater and nobody else passed him. And deep down, he knows he was deliberately impeding them. Just MHO of course.
Emphasis mine. Sounds like you agree that under certain conditions, 15 mph is impossible to pass.
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I merely proposed an alternative to folks who claimed it would be unsafe to stop. Doesn’t mean I concede that stopping would be improper. As far as slowing down further goes, I’ll point out yet again that I concede that if the OP gave the tailgater a reasonable chance to pass, my opinion would be different.
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No, under the right circumstances 15 mph would be just fine. The appropriate speed to allow the tailgater to pass depends upon the circumstances. In the situation described by the OP, I believe that the OP should have slowed down further for the simple reason that the tailgater did not have a reasonable opportunity to pass him at 15.
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Let me ask you this – will you agree that if the OP did not give the tailgater a reasonable chance to pass, that he was being a jerk?
Without commenting on sock-puppethood (which I think is unlikely), Lucwarm’s debating style seems much closer to the late unlamented King Nifty. Nifty’s stchick was to claim that other Dopers were lying about completely reasonable statments (in Nifty’s case, that Hallowe’en was celebrated by at least a few kids in Australia, in lucwarm’s case, that the OP is a liar based on the assumption that every road in America must be like the super-highway near his house in the city.) IIRC, King Nifty wouldn’t accept the word of dozens of Dopers either, and also made the completly unreasonable demands (like for exact locations). All we need now as for Lucwarm to start saying “CITE?!” repeatedly.
I don’t think he is a sock puppet, but I do think that my earlier “city-boy” comment might be a whole lot more accurate than I first thought. ANYONE who’s driven in the mountains, in rural areas, on unpaved roads will tell you that there are long stretchs where there are NO shoulder and no turn-offs. (Hell, how many Dopers in this thread have done just that? Are all of us lying Luc?)
And he still ignores the repeated points that
A) Even if a turnoff presented itself, it would be dangerous to do so. Luc, here’s a nickle. Go buy yourself a clue: the police aren’t always 2 minutes away. It’s dumb to stop on a deserted road in the middle of nowhere late at night when you’ve got a road-raging psycho behind you.
and
B) If someone’s brights have screwed up your night vision on an unlit mountain/country road (another nickle for another clue, Luc: streetlights aren’t always extant. They have to be built. they don’t just grow alongside roads) , trying to determine where the edge of the road is, when the shoulder is less than 5 inches wide and there’s a huge drainage ditch a few inches further over…and you don’t know how soft that shoulder actually is, pulling over (remember, your night vision is shot, and if your headlights are focused properly, most of their light is focused forward, not sideways) is dangerous.
And I’m still curious why 5 MPH is the magic “safe” number to allow a tailgater to pass.
Fenris, waiting for Luc to either say “CITE?!” or to say that I’m lying too.
On preview, Luc wrote:
luc my little witling: on a pitch black, mountain (or city) road filled with blind curves so you can’t see oncoming traffic a lot of the time, no-one in their right mind would try to pass 6 vehicles, regardless of how slowly they’re going. Remember the two lessons we learned above: “not all streets are like my local superhighway” and “streetlights don’t ‘jes’ happen”. If there’s no lights, if there are blind curves and dropoffs and if it’s a narrow road, I might risk passing one car, especially if they slowed down to 15. I might risk passing 2 cars. Maybe. Possibly. If the moon was bright and I knew the road. Then again, I might not. In either case, there is no way I’d try to pass six. My life isn’t worth the hour I might concievably save.
By the way, this strikes me as a bit too strong. I’m sure it must happen that people put one over on me regularly. And for clarification, I’m certainly not 100% sure about my claim about the OP lying. It’s my best judgment based on reading his posts, though. Feel free to disagree.
Jesus H Christ, lucwarm can figure out how to get to this site?!?
Dude, lemme get the thread fired up by saying you are a complete, true, unabashed, self-affirming peice of shit (proven by your claim to be a lawyer). I suspect you’re a 20 y/o undergrad hoping to get into law school. Let me give you some points you won’t take since you seem to have something wrong in your life that pissing people off makes you feel better.
YOU are the only one that ever mentioned 6 miles of road. If you know the milage of road, tell us exactly where it is! To continue trying to set you right (though impossible I’m sure)
Here in North Dakota, and NW Minnesota (Viqueens suck) (had to do it) outside Interstates and US highways, most common roads and highways are bordered by farm ditches that follow closley the road. And the “shoulder” is about 6 inches wide.
Now to the crux of why you are such an ignorant dipshit.
If I’m on a road behind someone doing 15MPH (after pulling up on them doing 30), I’d look towards the 6 miles you lied aboud as a chance to pass them in the 40 MINUTES IT WOULD TAKE TO COVER THE 6 MILES!
Maybe you don’t know the awesome power it takes to pass a car at 15 mph. By default, you don’t know how to turn the Hi-Beams off.
Let me give you a basic lesson in automotive technology.
Do not, I repeat, DO NOT, siphon gas for your '77 Pinto from a '76 Gremlim. It might screw up the horsepower you’ve never had.
As an aside, I live in a Concealed Carry state. Minnesota is the same so I can take it there. When someone wants to pull this shit, I keep slowing down till they usually pass ( we tend to be polite here, lucwarm, stay away) and without brights and tailgating, the people that want to drive fast do so. But having a gun is convenient if we get a lucwarm who wants to get squirrley.
Again, 15 MPH and you can’t pass!!! How small is your dick?!?
I am sure it is no surprise to anyone that I am a veteran driver of the mountainy roads around Yosemite National Park. The 41 (coming up from the South entrance) does have a fair amount of turn-outs (I’m thinking every few miles; it could be more than that) but when there are no turn-outs, there is NO WAY that any sane driver is going to pass a row of cars
Yosemite gets lots of slow-pokes: tourists who have never driven on a mountain road and ride their brakes the whole time (you can smell the rubber burning!) or people in huuuuge RVs that can barely make the turns—for a variety of reasons, it almost seems inevitable that I (and 5-20 cars as well) will get stuck behind a slowpoke going to Yosemite.
When these slow-pokes refuse to use the turn-outs (and some do, curse them) the rest of us are basically stuck. It’s too risky to try to pass the slowpoke. Especially if you are the second or third car behind. (Okay, I might pass two cars if there is a long straight stretch of road in the daytime, but that’s it.) I won’t even discuss the absurdity of trying to pass the slowpoke if you are the third, forth, etc. car behind. It ain’t gonna happen, no matter how slow the slowpoke is driving.
It’s up to that first car to pass, and sometimes they won’t, or can’t. In the case of the OP, the asshole tailgater probably could have passed, but wouldn’t. That leaves the rest of the people behind him stuck. Completely stuck. I’ve seen it, I’ve lived it, it is part of my heritage. (I remember as a child hearing my dad curse the slowpokes as he drove us up to Yosemite. This dynamic has been going on for a long time.)
Now, if you want to call me and all the rest of us “liars,” well, go ahead.
And for the record, that picture was taken by me while riding on the back of our motorcycle up the coast from L.A. to San Francisco. I am telling you that there are precious few places where anyone would feel safe pulling over under any conditions, let alone in the dark of night. Now go ahead and call me a liar.
*[sup][sub](Enlarge the image to full size, if necessary, to get a better view of the road conditions.)[/sub][/sup]
For what it’s worth, I’ve lived all over the country.
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Are you claiming that on these stretches, it’s impossible to allow the person behind you to pass? (I really would like an answer.)
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Let me ask you this (and I really would like an answer): If somebody starts tailgating you, which is more likely to provoke an aggressive response: (1) pulling over as far to the right as possible and slowing to either a full stop or to 0-5 mph; or (2) slowing down in such a way as to impede the tailgater without giving him a reasonable opportunity to pass?
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Perhaps it isn’t, depending upon the condiditions.
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Ok, so it sounds like you agree that MAYBE the tailgater didn’t have a reasonable opportunity to pass. Again, you can’t have it both ways. If it was super-easy for the tailgater to pass (as folks in this thread have been suggesting), then it would have been almost as easy for other folks to pass.
I concede that’s possible, but only the OP knows for sure. My point is that if it were as easy a pass as some folks seem to be suggesting, then others could have passed both in one shot.
You seem to agree that it’s possible that the OP’s tailgater had no chance to pass. If the OP did not give the tailgater a reasonable chance to pass, he’s being a jerk.
