George Washington didn’t believe in his cause? Hitler? David ben Gurion?
I would think so as well.
If Osama hadn’t been a True Believer, he could have gained a lot of power in a lot of seemlier, and more importantly more comfortable ways. He could have done what the rest of his family does and made a killing selling the blood of the earth. He could have had a 40-stories tower in Dubai with his name on it.
Instead he chose to tote an AK-47 in some dusty nowhereland, hiding in caves. He could have done like so very many fire & brimstone preachers and tasted the forbidden fruit just as he was decrying it but no, he practised what he preached.
Which is not to say he couldn’t have fallen in love with power once he got it, but I don’t think it was his primary motivation.
You’re joking, right? I’m not the one bringing religion into it. OBL did.
I thought you just said that you were aware that Arab wasn’t a synonym for Muslim.
So you can of course point out all of these hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians killed by the US decades prior to 9/11, right? Its one thing to point to US foreign policy as a contributing factor in the 9/11 attacks; it’s quite another to make shit up.
9/11 wasn’t ‘pinned’ on OBL, he claimed credit for it. I thought you weren’t a conspiracy theorist.
How many has Israel killed since it’s inception (Since we’ve given them untold billions which is why they can afford to militarily dominate the combined might of the entire arab world simultaneously)?
I am not even anti-zionist but it is pretty easy to see why the perception that America is responsible for thousands of muslim deaths is out there, since it’s like, true man. Probably not “hundreds” of thousands, but do you think that matters?
[basic fact checking] Israel defeated its enemies in '48 and devestated its military opponents in the Six Day War with virtually no US support, at all. In fact it wasn’t until '67 that a major faction in the US realized that we could use Israel as a counterweight against the Soviet-financed Arab nations which opposed US goals in the region.[/BFC]
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
[additional basic fact checking]The billions given to Israel were a part of the '79 Camp David Peace Accords that the US brokered between Israel and Egypt. Israel agreed to return the Sinai to Egypt in exchange for Egypt formally making peace with Israel. Egypt had cut itself off from Soviet military aid in the '73 war, and was stuck with a military equipped with Soviet weapons that it could neither get spare parts or future replacements for. The US agreed to give Egypt billions of dollars of military credits with which to buy US weaponry; to reassure Israel that this wouldn’t give Egypt a military edge billions of dollars of military credits were extended to Israel as well. The 1973 war was the last major war between Israel and its Arab neighbors, and occurred before these billions in aid.[/bfc]
Hmm, let me think a moment. An exaggeration by a factor of 100, yeah I think that matters. I somehow doubt that you’d be happy with your employer deciding to start paying you 1/100th of your salary, and you’d likely object to me claiming that hundreds of thousands were killed on 9/11.
In some further elaboration, in a war with “the combined might of the entire arab world simultaneously”, Israel’s true capability to achieve victory or M.A.D. does not come from an American contribution at all, but France’s nuclear program.
I don’t know if ModernPrimate appointed you his spokesman on this one, but I’ll ask if you’re taking the position that Israel is part of the United States. If so, I’m going to have to see a cite for that.
You get back to me on that and we’ll move on to the issues of body counts and apostrophes.
OBL brought it up, lol. You’re right, but OBL and the terrorists do not emphasize Islam like the west makes out. They only said it like Obama would say “in the name of god” or “with the help of god”. Many people bring up religion, that doesn’t mean their entire actions are always on some deluded behalf of their god. The Navy SEALS probably said something about god was with them some day.
NOT that I would condone some form of brash liberal agenda forcing them to not say anything about god or religion ever again… no, that is just censoring people up and would just add extra criticism to the Arabs. Don’t censor people up, but also don’t emphasize some thing they’re saying when it is really not the reason they are doing something.
My god, so you were actually being sarcastic when you stated that the US has been massacreing hundreds of thousands of arab civilians over the years.
That’s really, rather sad, and creepy, that you could actually be so deluded and brainwashed by Big Daddy U.S.A. that you would not think this about the US and all of the hundreds of thousands of Arabs its killed over the years… including its Israel which is merely a proxy state for the US.
What you are basically doing is similar to denying the holocaust and is extremely offensive to me (whether it be out of ignorance or not).
Oh really? Then why did CNN put out this report days later:
Bin Laden says he wasn’t behind the attack.
*
“I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons,” bin Laden’s statement said.
“I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders’ rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations,” bin Laden said.*
But never let the facts get in the way of a good piece of rhetoric, eh?
Hurr hurr… a factor of 100 hurrr hurrr… how funny.
You know that there were more than 1,000 arab civilians killed by the US in the 20th century, right? (let’s not even speak about the gross deformaties, radiation, cancer, legless children and radiactive poisoning they left in Vietnam).
You KNOW this, and yet you say “a factor of 100”. Who are you kidding? What sort of game are you trying to play?
If you want to have a joke about something, there has to be some sort of truth to it. Even a factor of 5 would have ruined the joke. A factor of 3 and you might even get away with it given that this is the internet and you are demanding citations.
There is undoubtedly over 100,000 Arabs killed by the US and/or Israel in the 20th century. Hell, there must already be over twice that amount in this century and we’ve just started it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
Of course, Bin Laden did claim he was the one behind it afterwards, but that was after the US painted it as him being behind it anyway.
Everyone knows all of this, it is why I said it. Everyone who is in any way interested in world affairs knows Bin Laden denied the attacks at one point.
This forum has a lot of highly intelligent and knowledgeable people in it, and frankly you stick out like a sore thumb.
“quit making shit up”… cop on. You’re making pro-US militants look like an even bigger joke than they are.
I’m assuming that your claim that there’s radioactive poison in Vietnam is a fact in the same sense your other facts are?
:smack:
Little Nemo, I am trying to have a serious discussion here. I assume that people have some elements of basic knowledge about the material they’re discussing when they come on a forum.
Please go and educate yourself some bit. Get a few really general books on US war history, or even just spend a long time reading on the web. You cannot just read an article here and there, watch CNN occasionally and assume you can come in and contradict others because you never heard something they’re trying to tell you.
I’m not here to be your loving teacher or parent, who will tell you a bit about the world and then when you ask questions, provide you with all sorts of nice links and more information about it.
It’s sad if trolls who are interested only in rhetoric plague this place as well as I really liked some of the posts here.
Please go on some other type of forum where you can play your game of coming out with the phrases like “quit making shit up” when it is not true at all… but please keep away from serious forums where you need some information more than you have to take part in the discussion.
Except this is pretty much what Ron Paul said here today.
There have been terrorist attacks in Scandinavia-such as one in Stockholm last year.
It’d be just oppression using the Communist Manifesto instead of the Koran to justify itself. Not to mention the Mujahadden included moderates not just Taliban.
Maybe I read it wrong but I thought he said to the effect that many Iraqis died from bombings.
Sadly true.
That is why is say both are factors.
[QUOTE]
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Because we are the most powerful and Spain, Britain, Sweden, and so on all have suffered terrorist attacks.
From what war or whatnot? From the sanctions on Iraq, from our support for Israel?
Oh I see. They justify their actions in the name of god, or with the help of god, quote the Quran, but it’s not actually religious. Gotcha. I guess Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson weren’t invoking religion either when they blamed 9/11 on liberals and homosexuals for invoking god’s wrath at America.
Umm.. Arab. Muslim. Not the same thing. I thought you said you understood this.
Funny, you making shit up is quite offensive to me. Are you going to provide any cite that the US killed hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians in the decades before 9/11 or admit you’re making shit up out of whole cloth? And no, moving goalposts to ‘Arabs’ instead of ‘innocent Arab civilians’’ and ‘the US’ to ‘the US and it’s proxy Israel’ doesn’t count, nor does anything post-9/11. By the way, referring to Israel as a proxy state of the US just demonstrates how deeply you are ignorant on this topic.
Make up your mind. This is as bad as your understanding of the difference between Arab and Muslim.
I don’t know which is sadder. You trying to move the goalposts from your absurd claim of hundreds of thousands of innocent Arab civilians killed by the US in the decades before 9/11, or that you think the US left radioactive poisoning in Vietnam. Two things should have come to mind in your cite: one is that it is casualties of the 2003 war, which didn’t happen in the decades before 2001, and the other is that it lists estimates of casualties caused by all sides in Iraq in a civil war, not Iraqis killed by the US.
I’m not the one with the problem here. I actually am familiar with history which is why I’m not accepting most of what you’re saying. I don’t know if you’re intentionally lying or if you’re delusional but the things you’ve claimed aren’t true.
Do not call other posters trolls on the SDMB outside The BBQ Pit.
You should also refrain from giving orders to other posters on the manner in which they may post.
Do not accuse other posters of lying, (in whatever manner you phrase it), in Great Debates.
[ /Moderating ]
Can’t he be both, like the late Earl Warren?
That’s not his job, it’s your job to defend your positions with facts.
The more you go on like this, without fact to defend your position, the more respect you lose.
Much like Ron Paul himself, now that I reflect on it.
My mistake, I somehow put my response to this topic in this thread
And this, of course, is why sometimes it pays to read a post backwards.
- You’re going to hang your hat on Stephen “The Zionists Are Hiding Under My Bed!” Walt’s back-of-the-envelope math that’s uncited, unsourced, and unsubstantiated? Okay…
- Even then, the total for pre-2001 deaths among Muslim civilians is actually set at about 3800 by Walt, with roughly 300 being from the disaster that was the Vincennes Affair and 3500 coming from the global coalition that fought against Iraq’s war of aggression against another Muslim nation. The proof of Walt’s desperation is that he tries to include sanctions against Iraq in the mix which UNSCR 661 was approved by a supermajority of nations involved and only had a handful of abstentions, and even then was about protecting the region from Sadaam’s military ambitions.
At best, bombastic bluster and bullshit.
Nobody who has clue 1 calls Israel a US base or a US outpost, as it is neither. One might note that you’re also using fictional “pro-Israelis’ “ arguments to bolster your bluster.
You’re also egregiously abusing language to the point where you claim that saying a nation is our strongest ally means that it’s our “proxy state”. That’s an absurdity heaped high on counter-factual claims, and it evinces that your argument cannot be taken at face value.
Your uncited, unsourced, non-statistical, non-medical, non-epidemiological analysis is certainly compelling. Even if we were to accept that there were mutagenic, carcinogenic compounds introduced into the environment, that’s still not proof of your original claim, which you have yet to cite or substantiate.
If you cannot cleave to basic factual accuracy, then your entire argument is tainted. DU is not a “dirty bomb” any more than a close ally is a “proxy state”. You’re also wildly incorrect about the actual health risks of DU.
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