Roomate of Doom and Gloom, a few questions

In My Humble Opinion
1

My GF has a situation she would like help with. Frankly we are at a loss of what to do.

Why do girls/women (25 going on 16) date assholes? I don’t get it? I mean we have all had our low points in the dating pool, but how much torture do you need to be put through to wise up and get out? The bad boy image I admit can be hot, but at the end of the day he is still just an asshole that treats women like shit. The reason I am going off on this rant is I have a friend in this situation and I can see where it is going with a Lifetime movie ending :frowning: But I should probably give you information about background on her dating history, so you can tell me why someone would risk her happiness for a douche bag.

My friend is 25 years old and has had a total of 3 “serious” relationships and all of them ending in disaster. Each of these guys have similar traits that should post red flags; fear of commitment, fear of intimacy, and unavailable. Her first relationship was in college and from what I know the relationship was on and off for 2 years and he was controlling red neck and eventually ended up being gay. I believe why she stay with this one on and off is because she was 200 pounds and had very low self esteem, which he totally used against her. The next one was a 45 year old she met in Wyoming at a seasonal job they were on and off for about 2 years because of distance and lack of communication. By this time she worked on herself and lost 80 pounds, gaining her confidence until this guy told her that she was hot before she lost the weight and she thought he was a keeper. This guy was a sex addict, alcoholic, and an angry drunk and she found all this out after they were engaged :smack: Next we move on to the nicer of the two, but this guys had some issues (don’t we all) but he was just divorced and was kicked out of his home by his sluty ex. Needless to say she may have been a rebound to fill his depression because they moved quick too soon. It seems like all the guys that she decides to date are full of issues and are not ready for a committed relationship. And here pattern is that she gets attached to quickly and then gets stuck a bad situation. I would also like to mention that she is very whishy washy and will say she will commit to something and then flake out, which has followed her throughout her dating patterns and not being able to leave, no matter how much she says that she will. It sounds like a typical abusive pattern and for awhile I thought she would wizen up and take some time off the dating game and work on herself, for a few months she did, until she met dickhead. This guy is a piece of work. He is 36 and divorced with one child that lives in CA with his mom. His job is a camera man for an independent company in OR. His job requires weird hours (no he does not do porn, although fry and I wonder: dubious: ) and there are months at a time when he is unemployed and sometimes he is gone for weeks. He smokes pot daily, cigarettes (which she hates), and drinks to much (angry drunk). She doesn’t smoke pot, but now when she with him she does or at least he blows it in her face (sexy and romantic :rolleyes: ),she doesn’t smoke cigs, but now she does once in a while. She has gained 10 pounds since she has been with him and she is more whishy washy than ever. He has yelled at her in a drunken state more times than I can tell or if she even tells me. And then she will say that they are taking time off which to me is more than 48 hours and she’ll take him back because he said he was sorry :rolleyes: And then the same shit happens again (shocker) :eek: I just don’t get it and I have told her he is not worth it, but I guess she likes to be walked all over.
The sad thing is, is that I have lost a friend to this waste of sperm and she is a nice girl even if she doesn’t make best decisions. She has changed so much and has been so influenced by this guy that she can’t even see straight. Even worse I worry about getting a phone call at 3am because she is in the hospital with bruises or they got into a drunken driving accident because he likes to drive under the influence.
I am sure there are tons of factors to her situation, such low self esteem, seeing her parents relationship (marry for kids not for love), and afraid of being alone. Hey I understand I don’t want to die alone either, but I rather die alone than be in an abusive relationship with an asshole that doesn’t give a shit and just wants to fuck.
Is there any hope for her or is she destined to be another statistic in domestic violence? I am not sure if he has ever hit her, not that she would tell me, but he does get angry when he is drunk and that should be a red flag. Just let me know what you think, I am sure there is nothing much that I can do except be there, but I also want to make sure that I am a good friend and not have a domestic abuse case that could have been stopped if someone just said something.
Weez

2

Women (and men) who date assholes and losers have very low self esteems and feel this is the best they can do. They deserve this schmuck* because they themself are such a loser with a capital L to the forehead.

Or they come from Daddy Knows Best enviroment and think it is normal to deal with someone who either has a Napoleon Complex or what I refer to as Colonel Von Trapp Before Maria syndrome. (He who issues orders and gives stern looks of disproval when things are not up to his snuff.)

People who date assholes are looking for the approval they never received as a kid. Their parental unit that mangled their brain has free rent in their head whom with probably never be evicted.

Either way, people like this are usually something of emotionally needy trainwrecks and should be avoided.

*schmuck in german means jeweler. Just thought I would share.

3

Many women are attracted to assholes and “fixer-upper” men. They are attracted to assholes because they (incorrectly) interpret their “assholeness” as “confidence.” They are attracted to “fixer-upper” men out of motherly instincts. Low self esteem also plays a big part in all of this.

A pep talk will not change this woman. She is who she is. Don’t try to save her… she will play the “I’m a victim” card and blame all of her problems on other people. Use your time and energy to work on your own failings & shortcomings.

4

Another thing that is often overlooked: Some people enjoy the drama of an unhealthy relationship. The passionate fights and then the passionate making up can be exciting.
I think that’s one reason why nice girls keep ending up with assholes. Relationships are about emotions, not logic.
Personally, I would just let her know that if she decides she wants to get out of this situation you’ll be there for her, but don’t try to convince her he’s a jerk. She needs to decide for herself that she has had it with this kind of behavior. I think you are likely to alienate her if you keep trying to convince her that her precious sweetie is a loser (even though you probably are right).

5

Frankly, I’d ditch her. Or completely ignore that aspect of her life, which is next to impossible.

I’ve known two such people, and they both asked for help or guidance or support. You can tell them that these guys aren’t good for them and they will reluctantly agree. They’ll say they’ll make a change - either by working on things with the guy, or by leaving him - but things will largely stay the same. You’ll hear more of these stories about the guy, you’ll get more concerned and press her to make a change, but really you’ll just get frustrated at each other.

I could be totally wrong here, but I’m 2 for 2 for girls like this turning against me.

6

I have somewhat of a track record for being in unhealthy relationships (although somewhat of a different sort than what the OP mentions), and it’s only recently that I’ve come to admit that a part of me does revel in the angst that such relationships bring. My recent trainwreck caused a lot of distress for my friends. They were very supportive and kept telling me that the guy was bad news - which I agreed with, but for quite some time I found that it was all worth it just to be with him. The first time I broke it off, it was more because of pressure from my friends than because I really wanted to - and I ended up hooking up with the guy again after a mere month. The second time was for good, and that happened because I finally realized that this guy was not worth risking my friendships and my sanity for. But I had to realize this for myself, instead of simply agreeing with everyone else who told me this (and it took a whole dramatic incident for this to happen, but that’s another story). The most friends can do is be there, and I was blessed with friends that stuck by me despite the fact that I was being an absolute idiot.

7

Thank you for all your responses. I guess in the end I want my friend back, and I have made atempts to do this, but she is too busy being his slave. I guess I wont say anything, though it is hard. I feel like its a lost cause which makes it hard to be sympathetic when she keeps going back to this kind of relationship.

Weez

8

I can perhaps give another perspective. I was very similar to your friend, being quite overweight in college, and had a history of dating guys that everyone around me knew I shouldn’t be with because they were big time jerks and treated me very badly.

What my friends didn’t understand was that I was not picking these guys, they were picking me. Because of the weight issue and low self esteem that goes with it, the only guys who were interested in dating me were ones who could see very quickly I would be a doormat and let them get away with things a “normal” woman wouldn’t. They would constantly remind me that I was lucky they would have me, because most other men wouldn’t. And unfortunately that was true.

Even if I met a man who didn’t care so much about the extra weight, my extreme wishy-washyness, and my inability to speak my mind and state my own opinions would make me undatable for the average nice guy who wasn’t looking for someone to dump on. All I felt I had to offer anyone was that I could put up with being treated badly and be taken advantage of. I definately didn’t enjoy the drama, or search out bad boys. But they were the only ones that would have anything to do with me.

Over time I worked very hard and lost the weight. But the years of seeing myself as undatable caused me to continue the same pattern. If a nice guy showed any interest, I never picked up on it. My mind just would not let me take them seriously. If they went out of their way to talk to me or spend time with me, I figured they just felt sorry for me, so I would avoid them, not wanting their pity.

I ended up with a really horrible guy who really messed with my head. My close friends had had enough. So they did sort of a tough love type thing. They told me that if I continued to let myself be abused by the guy, they could no longer stand by and watch me ruin my life. They said it was very hard to take that stand, but they felt something drastic had to happen or I would be lost to them anyway. So they gave me an ultimatum: break up with the guy and not go back to him, or they would not see me anymore.

You would think that would have really upset me. But it really didn’t. I felt so worthless as a person, I figured I didn’t deserve girlfriends that cared that much about me anyway. I ended up chosing the guy. But it did wake me up to the fact that I really was ruining my life by staying with him. I was sentancing myself to a life of unhappiness. I just couldn’t get away from him. Everytime I tried, he came back with promises of being different. And it was easier for me to just go back.

I made some new friends, who also couldn’t stand this guy. They took a different approach to “save” me. They knew I had trouble accepting that a nice guy could be interested in me, so they made sure I met lots of nice guys. They would take me to parties or other group events and later tell me, “Joe said he thought you were very pretty and funny and if you didn’t have a boyfriend, he would ask you out.” “Dave was asking me all about you, I can tell he likes you.” “We all couldn’t help but notice that Tom was never far from you all night. We could tell he was interested in you.”

That was a huge help for me. I didn’t quite believe my friends, and that made me realize I really had some issues to clear up. I could see that it really wasn’t normal for me to find it so unbelievable that someone might be romantically interested in me. I knew I needed to work on those issues that made me feel that way. I felt I could make some necessary changes in my head, the same way I had earlier made the changes to my body by losing weight. And it was finally time I did it.

I broke-up with the guy for good. I then took several months to improve my self esteem. I pretty much mapped out the person I would like to be, and then worked on being that person. After doing that I realized if I was to be alone the rest of my life, that would be ok. I had many new things I was interested in, and those would keep me busy and active. And for the first time I felt that being alone was preferable to being with a bad guy. I had never felt that way before, and it was very liberating. I found myself smiling and lauging, really enjoying life in a way I never had, not afraid to meet new people or try new things.

Shortly after that I met a really nice man that I was crazy about. He met a confident, independent, woman who was enjoying life and had a lot to offer.

About a year and half later we were married, and will be celebrating our 14th wedding anniversery soon.

So all that is to say there is hope for your friend. I was 26 when I finally had the desire to make the necessary changes in my life to be free from the bad guys. Looking back I think it was a combination of the tough love from the one group of friends and the support and encouragement from the other group of friends. In the long run though I know none of them could do the hard part for me. I had to be willing to do the work.

My suggestion would be to let your friend know you think she is much to valuable as a person to let herself be treated badly. You know she deserves better. And it is becoming harder and harder for you to watch what is happening to her. You would like to help in anyway, but she will just have to decide for herself she is also worth better treatment. Making changes won’t be easy, but without some major changes her situation will never improve. But if she is willing to work for it, that work can payoff in her having a life she doesn’t now believe is possible. She can make a life where she is happy being alone. And once that happens, she will find the quality of men who are interested in sharing that life goes up immensely.

9

There are at least three theories of why women date assholes. The first is that women are attracted to confidence, not assholes, but it just so happens that confidence and niceness don’t rest easily together - particularly in young men. Men who think highly of themselves typically think little of others. On the other hand, nice guys don’t become confident about themselves (if at all) until they’re older - after they’ve actually done something to merit that confidence.

Given a choice, women will choose the confident asshole over the meek nice guy. But it’s not that they like assholes, it’s that they’re attracted to confidence.

The biological theory is that humans had a hundred thousand years of evolution as hunter-gatherers before we moved on to the industrial age, and during that time evolution favored women who sought out and paired off with the biggest badasses they could find. This provided (some) protection against the badasses themselves, and additional protection against other badasses who might otherwise attempt to take advantage of, or otherwise harm the women, and their babies. Plus, the biggest badass is likely to obtain the lion’s share of the tribe’s resources, and he’s more likely to share it with his own women and his own offspring, than others.

The third theory is that there are not enough perfect men and women to go around, and so a lot of women (and men) choose less than perfect mates, because it’s better to have a less than perfect mate, than to have no mate at all.

10

It’s like this: some men are real jerks, but some jerks are real men.

11

I seem to be the only person alive who doesn’t actually believe that this is true. I mean, I think it’s a reasonable theory, but I can’t see how being with someone icky is better than being alone.

12

Well said, Grits. I was that girl, too. In my case, the low-self esteem came from being flat-chested. Then when I was about seventeen, I got my heart broken and thought it was the end of my life. I distinctly remember thinking, “Well, I’ll never be happy anyway, so it doesn’t matter what happens now.” Along came a bad guy, and I followed obediently.

A few years of hell later, I was knocked up (again) and decided that actually having the baby would force me to change my life. However, I was afraid to tell anyone, so I kept quiet for about seven months. At that time, I was getting too big to hide it anymore, so I called my mother and she rescued me. My daughter was born a few weeks later, and she did force me to change my life, but I didn’t do it gracefully or well. A few years later, along came a bad guy…

This time the catalyst for change was physical abuse. I still wasn’t the sharpest crayon in the box, but I remembered someone along the line had mentioned that this was a Really Bad Thing. They were right!

I am married now to a good man, and I’m amazed at my luck. Over the years, my self-esteem issues and child-rearing skills have improved steadily, and I’ve finally learned that a bad guy is worse than no guy at all. Apparently I learn best the hard way. I wish I could tell you how to help your friend, LF’s GF, but I’m not sure there is anything you can do except keep in touch with her, keep talking and keep listening. Good luck to you all.

13

That’s the standpoint that is usually arrived at from low self esteem. The logic is thus:
I am unattractive. No one would want to be with me.
Abusive Jerk wants to be with me. I’m not *that * unattractive - at least someone wants me!
Abusive Jerk abuses. I’m so unattractive only an abusive jerk would want me. If I leave Abusive Jerk, no one will want me. This is the best I can hope for, but I’m more desireable than that loser over there who is all alone.

Not being alone, even at high cost, is more validating to the self esteem than being alone.
I do not like to think about why I know this.

14

I have low self-esteem, but perhaps it’s not as low as I thought, since I never had that train of thought. I’m not trying to belittle anyone whose mental process does go that way, though; it’s a bad thing and I hate to see anyone go through that. I can see where it follows from low self-esteem; it’s not as if the idea doesn’t make sense to me. But for me, it’s always been, “Look what a loser I must be, if only this person wants me. Forget it, I’d rather be alone.” I am pretty weird, though.

15

I think you’re wrong there. Schmuck means jewelry, more or less, though according to Babelfish it also means simply “decoration”.

Jeweler in German is Juwelier.