Rubystreak keep your fucked up reality to yourself

[kidchameleon]

While enjoying an entertaining pit thread, you decide to let us know that teachers aren’t biased on children’s gender because

@Rubystreak

In NYS, all teachers have to have a Masters degree in education

in post 38 . Well, that seemed a bit much, knowing a bit about teacher shortages, the difficulty of getting a Masters and what most teachers have for education. So, in post 172 , I responded

@kidchameleon

Huh? Every teacher in NYS has a Masters? Someone get me a cite!

Not the friendliest objection in the world, but hey in the pit it’s pretty mundane. Six posts later I’m confronted with

@Rubystreak

Look it up yourself-- this is the fucking Pit and I’m sick of being the only one who bothers ever providing cites, but it’s true. You cannot get permanent certification (called a “professional certification” as of 2004) in NYS unless you have a Masters, and you have to do this within 3 years of getting the job. If you do not get your Masters within 3 years, you lose your cert and therefore your job.

Well now, that sounded a bit grumpy to me and incorrect. Of course, it refutes your first claim as well, as there is no reason for the progression requiring a Masters in Eduction if all the teachers already have one. But I investigated further in post 181 . Well, not only do I find out from the NYS Education Department that one can get a Professional certificate with out a Masters, they are good for five years. Well, you can’t accept that.
No, you know more than everyone about teaching in NYS. So three posts later you reply

@Rubystreak

Are you hijacking this thread to rag on me because you lack other interesting things to do with your life? Yeah, thought so. I have no idea why you have a problem with me and are seeking me out for bullshit attacks like this, but apparently you do. Whatever. This attack, as they go, is pretty fucking lame, because… you’re wrong.

You didn’t read the cites you offered very carefully or thoroughly; shame on your reading teacher. The Permanent Certificate is being phased out; as of February 2004, if you aren’t in the process of getting it, you can’t get it (see my cite below-- yours has incomplete data on it and still lists the old cert process, no longer in effect). I have mine, got it right under the wire, so I’m certified for life. That doesn’t happen anymore. The Provisional Cert, which was the first phase leading up to the Permanent, lasted 5 years. But that’s not longer a valid way to get certification.

Now, you have to get the Initial Cert and then the Professional Cert. On your very own cite, which you failed to read:

Initial certificates would be valid for three years, as it says on the cite YOU posted. Not 5 years. That’s the no longer available Provisional Cert. Just like I said. And under the criteria for Professional Cert it say “Masters Degree,” also just like I said. So, your quotes from your own cite were very inaccurate. I can’t believe you came at me, guns blazing, when you were so far off the mark. Good job.

So you go on to insult me for some imagined attack, for using the substandard NYSED website rather than accepting your vast, indisputable knowledge and then mock me for my poor reading comprehension skills, accusing my cite of stating three years when it clearly states five. Another three posts and I fire back at your either inability or unwillingness to comprehend my cites. Apparently upset that someone is disturbing your precious reality, you respond in post 192 . And you write

@Rubystreak

No, I said they had a Masters. There are several different kinds, not all are MSEd.

The fuck you didn’t, you stupid lying ass vomit! I hope you are sexually molested by the antagonist from every Sci Fi Original movie for the next month, you two faced, gutter slurping hypocrite.

And you still haven’t come close to proving that every teacher in NYS has a Masters of anything. Obviously they can get an initial certificate and teach for five years. If teachers starting the career don’t have them then not all of the teachers in the state have a Masters. How can anyone hope to have a discussion with someone who either isn’t in touch with reality or feels that lying is just another way to get ahead?

[Rubystreak]

Well, I’m glad you stopped hijacking that other thread. A step in the right direction, but…

@kidchameleon

I hope you are sexually molested by the antagonist from every Sci Fi Original movie for the next month, you two faced, gutter slurping hypocrite.

Wow. Just… yeah. I don’t even think I need to say anything but… wow. Disagreement about teaching certifications in NYS leads to this, but you don’t have a problem with me. Riiiiight. Still don’t know exactly what I did to you to deserve this level of hyperbolic bile, but I suspect you need to lance the boil on your ass, sit down, and take a deep breath.

And you still haven’t come close to proving that every teacher in NYS has a Masters of anything. Obviously they can get an initial certificate and teach for five years.

Yeah, they can, but if they want to become professionally certified in the state of NY, they do have to get a Masters or they will lose their jobs. My cites do bear this out. You didn’t read them thoroughly, as I said in the other thread.

How can anyone hope to have a discussion with someone who either isn’t in touch with reality or feels that lying is just another way to get ahead?

First of all, you didn’t want to have a discussion with me, you wanted to take a big old shit all over me. OK, good, you got what you wanted. Bowels evacuated, feel better? Second, not out of touch with reality. Third, fuck off, you psychopath. This is a weak-ass Pitting. Have a nice weekend.

[Rubystreak]

Further clarification, for those who are actaully interested in a discussion of the merits of the topic:

1. The MSEd is one Masters you can get to receive Professional Certification. You can also get an MAT, a Master of Arts in Teaching. Both are education Masters, but they are not the same degree. Perhaps it was hair splitting to make a distinction, but they are different degrees. There’s also and EdM and others I don’t even know about.

2. I acknowledge that the Initial Cert is now good for 5 years and not the 3 that it was in 2004, when the rules were first changed.

3. You still haven’t debunked my claim that you need a Masters to get your Professional Cert in NYS. Yes, there are teachers currently teaching who do not have a Masters. Obviously that is true. However, in order to remain a teacher beyond the 5 year Initial Cert, you do have to get a Masters. Even the Alternative Teacher Certification Program, which helps people who don’t qualify for the Initial Cert to teach, eventually leads to graduate study, it just takes longer. This is for areas with teaching shortages and not available everywhere.

4. On the cite you keep referring to, the NYSED website, all the pathways to certification require Masters. However, the link to the Programs Leading to Teacher Certification still lists programs that terminate in a Provisional Certificate, which is no longer available… so much for the up-to-date accuracy of that cite.

5. Really, is anyone besides us interested in this?

[Q.E.D]

@Rubystreak

5. Really, is anyone besides us interested in this?

Apparently not.

[wring]

@Rubystreak

3. You still haven’t debunked my claim that you need a Masters to get your Professional Cert in NYS.

But the cited quote in the OP states:

@Rubystreak

In NYS, all teachers have to have a Masters degree in education

which isn’t the same thing as you claim here.

@Rubystreak

Yes, there are teachers currently teaching who do not have a Masters. Obviously that is true. However, in order to remain a teacher beyond the 5 year Initial Cert, you do have to get a Masters. Even the Alternative Teacher Certification Program, which helps people who don’t qualify for the Initial Cert to teach, eventually leads to graduate study, it just takes longer. This is for areas with teaching shortages and not available everywhere.

IOW - your original assertion (as quoted, I’ll confess I haven’t gone back to the original thread to see if it was quoted correctly - assume that had the OP botched that, you’d have latched onto it) was not at all the qualified assertion you state in this post. “all teachers have to have a Masters degree in education” is not at all the same as ‘you need this in order to get your professional certfication, which you must have if you will teach for more than (x) number of years’.

@Rubystreak

5. Really, is anyone besides us interested in this?

even though I answered this, no, not really that interested.

Am particularly tired, however, of folks asserting something in the Pit and getting all huffy about being asked to back it up. It may be “just the pit” but when you post something folks can, and often do, ask for support.

[HazelNutCoffee]

That’s a lot of bile for a teacher’s certificate.

[Rubystreak]

@wring

IOW - your original assertion (as quoted, I’ll confess I haven’t gone back to the original thread to see if it was quoted correctly - assume that had the OP botched that, you’d have latched onto it) was not at all the qualified assertion you state in this post. “all teachers have to have a Masters degree in education” is not at all the same as ‘you need this in order to get your professional certfication, which you must have if you will teach for more than (x) number of years’.

You are correct. I should not have made such an unqualified statement as “All teachers in NYS HAVE A MASTERS.” That is not accurate. What is accurate is that all of them have to get one, and thus, if you don’t have one, you can bet your ass you are working towards one in order to get it in 5 years while working full-time; not to mention, we have ongoing professional development requirement that continue even after your have your cert.

The whole point of my assertion in that thread was to say that teachers do have training in dealing with kids of all types: both genders, different races, SES, ability levels, etc. This was in response to the poster who said female teachers need sensitivity training to teach boys. That’s ridiculous. We have all sorts of training, is my point. I don’t think the quibbling over how long it teachers have to get the Masters diminishes that point. It’s just kidchameleon with a rod up his ass for no discernable reason giving me a hard time because he has a problem with me, another point that is amply proven by this thread.

Am particularly tired, however, of folks asserting something in the Pit and getting all huffy about being asked to back it up. It may be “just the pit” but when you post something folks can, and often do, ask for support.

Didja see how catsix reacted in that thread when as I asked for cites to back up her blanket claims about what feminism is? She said I was asking her to dance for me. I did offer cites in that thread, for all the good it did. And I’ve tried to offer cites in other Pit threads only to be told that they weren’t good enough, or to have them dismissed entirely in favor of anecdotes. There is no reward for doing research for Pit threads, so why bother, is my feeling. Also, kidchameleon has been a dick to me in the past. I had no good will towards his seemingly innocent request for a cite and thus I had no inclination to accommodate his wishes for that reason. I feel that my intuition about his motivations towards me has been adequately demonstrated.

[wring]

I think this all would have gone over better had your original response to kid been something like “my original statement was unintentionally too broad - while it’s correct that to have a permanent certification, one must blah blah blah, but it is true that one can teach for (x) years w/o that permanent certification”, they’d probably even had accepted that.

did I see catsix’s (etc etc etc). Short answer? nope. Medium answer? There’s some posters who are like fat, rabid, SUV -driving, gun- toting pit bulls on certain topics*. I like my sanity at the teetering edge it is, thanks just the same.

I still maintain that yes, even in the pit you make an assertion, don’t be surprised to be asked to back it up.

(* Note - I have actually agreed w/catsix on occasion, have no real personal grief w/her, just like with some other posters, there are certain topics that well, I’d just rather avoid, and catsix+ feminism is one of those)

[Rubystreak]

@wring

I think this all would have gone over better had your original response to kid been something like “my original statement was unintentionally too broad - while it’s correct that to have a permanent certification, one must blah blah blah, but it is true that one can teach for (x) years w/o that permanent certification”, they’d probably even had accepted that.

Of course you’re right about that. And if it had been someone other than kidchameleon who poked me about it, I would have, and had it not been in a thread where posters refused to give cites on much more relevant points, without consequences for their argument, I would have. Did my brusque brush-off warrant this bullshit, exceedingly nasty OP? Fuck no. Would I rather have avoided having someone wish that I were molested by a SciFi antagonist? Nah, that image cracked me up, actually. kidchameleon watches the SciFi Channel. Now it all makes sense!

(* Note - I have actually agreed w/catsix on occasion, have no real personal grief w/her, just like with some other posters, there are certain topics that well, I’d just rather avoid, and catsix+ feminism is one of those)

Again, you are right. And I too have agreed with catsix on occasion, though not about feminism-- I probably should have let her statements go by in that thread, knowing that most people don’t take her rantings seriously on that topic, and those who do aren’t going to be swayed by cites. The point I was trying to make is, I have offered cites in Pit threads. It hasn’t usually done me any good, and I was irritated by catsix’s earlier refusal to offer an cites, so why the fuck should I?

To avoid rape by a SciFi Channel monster in a movie playing only in kidchameleon’s head is why, obviously.

[wring]

Well, there we are - a reasonable postion, even in the pit. whoduthunk?

[fisha]

I think if you make a blanket statement such as “In NYS, all teachers have to have a Masters degree in education,” you better be able to back it up, Pit or otherwise, if you want to be taken seriously.

Getting all pissy and personally insulting kid after he called you on it makes you look like you’re either blustering or a complete bitch. Especially after you take catfight to task for the same behavior.

I haven’t noticed any the aforementioned posters enough to know if there is any long standing feuds that would precipitate this hostility. There seems like there might be, however, in this case, I think asking for a cite was a reasonable request.

[Rubystreak]

@fisha

I think if you make a blanket statement such as “In NYS, all teachers have to have a Masters degree in education,” you better be able to back it up, Pit or otherwise, if you want to be taken seriously.

All teachers in NYS do have to have a Masters degree… within 5 years. It was a tossed off comment to make a larger point.

Getting all pissy and personally insulting kid after he called you on it makes you look like you’re either blustering or a complete bitch. Especially after you take catfight to task for the same behavior.

I’m a complete bitch, obviously, but it was bitching in a specific context. Not an excuse, an explanation. I didn’t insult kidchameleon personally until he got pissy at me for not offering a cite. I just did not feel like looking up a cite for him in that thread, at that point. And it was catsix, not Cat Fight.

I haven’t noticed any the aforementioned posters enough to know if there is any long standing feuds that would precipitate this hostility. There seems like there might be, however, in this case, I think asking for a cite was a reasonable request.

Which it was 100% OK for catsix to ignore and no one said shit about that. Huh. Double standard on the Dope? Never.

[fisha]

Yes, catsix should have absolutely provided cites as well. I always look upon unanswered requests for reasonable cites as a weakness of position, Pit or not.

[Rubystreak]

@fisha

Yes, catsix should have absolutely provided cites as well. I always look upon unanswered requests for reasonable cites as a weakness of position, Pit or not.

There were some weaknesses in my position, which I think were trivial compared to the weaknesses in a statement like:

@catsix

Feminists do not want equality of opportunity. They want enforced equality of outcome, no matter how unfair it is or how little it has to do with the actual merits of the individuals in question.

After she refused to back up this statement and many others with cites, I figured, OK, we’re not doing cites in this thread, because refusing to offer any did not affect the momentum of her argument at all in that thread. My point about female teachers not needing special sensitivity training to deal with boys because teachers have a lot of training was a minor point in comparison to some of the doozies being tossed out in that thread… yet I get Pitted over my lack of cites. I really don’t get it. I’m a huge bitch, but catsix and I are at least on par, I’d say.

Usually I do offer cites. However, I now know how catsix felt when she said, “I’m not in any kind of mood to dance because you command it.” However, I should have just looked it up because then I would have known that they changed the Initial Cert to 5 years, and realized that the NYSED website is so confusing, convoluted, and in places outdated, that kidchameleon would come away with the wrong info and then come at me with it like he was right.

Next time, I will just give the damn cite and not be self-righteous about it. I doubt that will change kidchameleon’s opinion of me, because, after all, this thread is not really about offering cites.

It’s about the SciFi Channel.

[mischievous]

I have absolutely no dog in this fight, but I’m in a nitpicky mood, so I’m going to nitpick…

Knowing that teachers must get a Masters after five years is very different from saying that all (or almost all) teachers have Masters. I remember reading an article in the New York Times (this was years ago, so no cite) that mentioned that the average half-life of teachers in NYC was something like 4 years. If my memory is accurate, it might very well mean that very few teachers in NYC have Masters, because the majority of them haven’t been there very long. Even if the average teaching career in the rest of the state is 15 years*, that would still mean that probably a third of teachers do not have Masters.

I’m guessing this is generous, actually. Not very many people stick with any job in any one place for that long these days, much less a stressful and underpaid job like teaching.

[Rubystreak]

@mischievous

Knowing that teachers must get a Masters after five years is very different from saying that all (or almost all) teachers have Masters.

I have no idea what the length of the average teaching career is. I will resort to anecdote now and say that the vast majority of the people I work with have their Masters. Honestly, in the entire school, there might be 2-3 teachers who are working towards it, the rest have it.

I still don’t think my comment was worthy of what I got in this Pitting. It seems obvious that a grudge is at work here. Much worse is said all the time on these boards without resort to such hostility.

[Rubystreak]

Since the NYSED site is so fucked, here is the site of NYSUT, the teacher union, which states that you need a Masters to get the Professional Certificate. This is where I got my info that kidchameleon said was bullshit and disregarded as a valid cite (contributing to my overall feeling that it’s a mug’s game to offer cites, but I can’t win for losing apparently on that score). It lays the whole thing out much more succintly than the NYSED site, which has outdated info.

Since this thread is for the cite fetishist, and I’m obviously both a glutton for punishment and possibly the only person who is actually interested in the topic of this thread, here’s one I found that seems pretty reputable/. The author says, “Our data comes from administrative records in New York State that allow us to follow allteachers in the state over the past 30 years.”

According to this, more than 50% of beginning teachers who began their career in 1990 went on to teach 10+ years, and about 27% left by their 3 year (and some of them probably had their Masters). The 1995 cohort had 22.8% leave after their 3rd year (again, we don’t know the degree of education they had). The trend is towards longer teaching careers, not shorter. With the new certification process, students who intend to teach in NYS have to take pedadogical coursework as undergrads; some programs include the Masters as part of the program. Gone are the days when you can get your undergrad degree in whatever you want, then go out and teach English. You have to commit to it from the beginning of your college career, which I think makes it harder for people to switch careers and less likely to do so.

IME, most teachers have their Masters. Fewer teachers in shortage areas have it, I’m sure, but the certification process for them still has the Masters as an end goal. This site says that NYC does not accept applications to uncertified teachers. The Teaching Fellows program, and alternative cert process, has a subsidized Masters as part of the program, emphasizing my point, that NY wants all its teachers to have Masters… and most do have it or are trying to get it.

I’m not sure what more I can say to back up my point here.

[mischievous]

Wow! I was just pointing out a hole in your logic, I wasn’t trying to challenge your veracity. I believe you if you say that most of your fellow teachers have masters. I still maintain that the numbers don’t necessarily back that up (i.e. if 50% of teachers teach less than 10 years, with potentially most of their career uncertified, and the other 50% teach more than 10 years, with potentially up to half of their careers uncertified, that leaves open the possibility that a fairly low percentage of teachers have no Masters). However, it’s still entirely possible that most teachers get their Masters early in their careers and many have long careers - I’m perfectly happy to take your word for that.

As far as I’m concerned, you’ve made a very thorough, well thought-out, and well cited answer to the question. I’m sorry you got sucked into this excessively pedantic sidetrack which, honestly, is entirely incidental to the question of sexism in pedagogy.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@HazelNutCoffee

That’s a lot of bile for a teacher’s certificate.

Well, education is a contentious issue.

[fachverwirrt]

@Rubystreak

Since the NYSED site is so fucked, here is the site of NYSUT, the teacher union, which states that you need a Masters to get the Professional Certificate. This is where I got my info that kidchameleon said was bullshit and disregarded as a valid cite (contributing to my overall feeling that it’s a mug’s game to offer cites, but I can’t win for losing apparently on that score). It lays the whole thing out much more succintly than the NYSED site, which has outdated info.

Just a question (sorry to be reasonable in the pit; I promise I’ll swear at you some other day): the Master’s requirement listed in your cite is:

Master’s degree (The graduate study which will culminate in a graduate degree must be “functionally related” to the subject field or grade level in which certification is being requested. The term “functionally related” means that the graduate degree program is job-related, as determined by the Commissioner.);

So, do you actually need a Master’s in education (or an MAT), or one in your subject area? I ask because both my wife and I have our Masters’ in music performance (she is actively teaching middle school music, I will be teaching (hopefully high school choir) within the year, as soon as I finish with my student teaching). In Missouri, a Master’s in your field of expertise is sufficient; there is no need for a Master of Education. If I’m reading that paragraph correctly, it seems to say the same thing, but it’s a little ambiguous.

Just curious.