The video was to a riot in South Korea where a bunch of students, armed with Molotov cocktails, advanced on the South Korean Parliament, and then, when the police lined up to stop them, attacked the police with Molotov cocktails. The police, not opening fire on the crowd, held them off until police reinforcements came, at which point, the police managed to scatter them, destroy the Molotov cocktails and make arrests.
In other words, they didn’t act the way the Ukrainian police did.
Not to worry. He’ll invent some new distinction without a difference rather than admit error.
Did the students kill any police? Did they break through police lines? Did they drag police out of their trucks and take them as prisoners? Did they set a major political party’s HQ on fire at the start of advance on Parliament?
Do you think that Ukrainian police could have stopped the rioters in Kiev and gone about ‘arresting’ those that threw Moletov Cocktails at police on February 18? By the end of the day on the 18th of February in Kiev ten police were killed. And you argue that a government has no right to use live ammunition against 20,000 murderous fire-bombing thugs and rioters demanding that an elected President step down. And your reasoning is because Korean students throwing petrol bombs were turned back when police reinforcements arrived. Did you know that trainloads of reinforcements of government troops were reported as being blocked in other parts of Ukraine from reaching Kiev?
I don’t need to invent distinctions. Its obvious you cannot refute the distinctions that exist because to dont even try. If I have made an error point it out.
How about supporting a ceasefire?
Would be a little more believable if there weren’t a bunch of Russians involved in the fighting, don’t you think?
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]
Did the students kill any police? Did they break through police lines? Did they drag police out of their trucks and take them as prisoners? Did they set a major political party’s HQ on fire at the start of advance on Parliament?
[/QUOTE]
Well, the police in South Korea avoided that by not killing any protesters or enacting draconian measures BEFORE the riot in question. A point you don’t seem capable of understanding.
Possibly had the Ukrainian government not attempted to crack down on any sort of protest and not used lethal force BEFORE February 18th things might not have spun out of control so much. Or, perhaps had the government not done a 180 in the first place sparking protests (that they attempted to suppress using draconian and lethal means) it wouldn’t have spun out of control. Or, perhaps the universe really was created on February 18th and nothing happened before that seemingly critical date to you.
Well, on the bright side, it seems to indicate the Russians aren’t actually willing to move into eastern Ukraine en masse, or they feel they need to stall for more time before it’s practical.
If there is a bright side to this situation.
I think that’s become obvious by now. Putin helped create the current situation in Eastern Ukraine and now wants nothing to do with it because he know that he stands to lose more than he could win. The question is how much undercover support he’s willing to give the rebels, and whether it will be enough to keep them fighting for long.
The Ukrainian government meanwhile is not being particularly civilised about this either, what with air strikes and full-blown attacks against eastern rebels. I guess this is partly a message to Russia that Ukraine is ready to fight, and that its armed forces are far more united than most thought just 4-5 weeks ago.
Ukraine has two choices: (1) fight the rebels; or (2) concede to them.
There really is no middle ground. A nation that does not fight against rebels has, de facto, handed over sovereignty to them.
If I’m completely honest I expected Poroshenko to negotiate with the rebels as soon as he got to power. I was deeply mistaken, clearly 
If there were some authentic “rebels” with actual grievances I would expect some negotiations. There is no such thing. The “prime minister” is a Russian citizen. The “defense minister” is a Russian citizen. The rebel “warriors” are trained Russian soldiers. There is no one to negotiate with and there are no terms to negotiate.
Prior to February 18 there were two unidentified protesters that were shot and killed. A third protester was killed when a bullet hit the gas tank of the car he was in and was killed.
Those deaths occurred several weeks before ten police were killed in riots on February 18. You may excuse the murderous mob that attacked police and set an opposition party building on fire over what was not even proven to be police use of live ammo prior to that, but I don’t and won’t ever condone the killing of police doing their duty to protect a nation’s legislature from mob violence, riots and attempts to overthrow an elected president.
I have no idea what the fuck point you think you are making here. Seemingly you are saying that killing 3 protesters is ok if they are unidentified, you didn’t even mention the draconian measures the government took or those beaten and imprisoned (handwaved again, as per your usual modus operandi), and instead you want to make some point about 10 police being killed by rioters (while, again, ignoring those snipers shooting protesters) and this means you are making a stand against mob violence and don’t condone blah blah blah, horseshit horshit handwave…or something. What…the…fuck?
Do you even hear yourself (or read the tripe you spew)? Can you really, truly not understand how all of this stuff is connected?
Being unidentified has nothing to do with the point being made. Draconian measures against mob violence does not justify killing ten police defending the elected government. You apparently think it does. The violent mob did in fact succeed in toppling an elected government.
You wrote this: “Well, the police in South Korea avoided that by not killing any protesters or enacting draconian measures BEFORE the riot in question.”
Your position has to be that the high number of random shootings by government snipers was due and legitimate cause for rioters to try to take the Parliament and killing police that tried to block their way. Yet the facts show nothing ties the police to the two or three shootings that took place prior to February 18.
The violent advance to take the Parliament and toss out the Constitution as the stated goal is not justified by shootings that occurred after the attempted mob coup and fire bombing of the majority Party’s HQ.
You keep trying to justify mob violence while never acknowledging that even an elected governnent must use lethal force when protecting the state if 40 million citizens from 20,000 brick and fire bomb throwing killers.
I don’t buy your missing the facts and justificationsd for the mob attacks on police on the morning of February 18. Those protesters went too far. The South Korean students were stopped before police were being killed. Huge distinction.
So XT or anyone else from the pro-Maidan court, was it ok for protesters to set Yanukovich’s Party of Regions HQ on fire during the morning of starting riots of February 18? Can you find a way to blame police for causing them to do it?
Police were still using batons and clubs to break the heads of these murderous thugs and arsonists. It appears clubs were not enough for these champions for democracy and EU enlightenment.
I have to ask this in all sincerity…is anyone else, anyone besides NFBW having trouble seeing my point or following what I’m trying to say?
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]
Being unidentified has nothing to do with the point being made. Draconian measures against mob violence does not justify killing ten police defending the elected government. You apparently think it does. The violent mob did in fact succeed in toppling an elected government.
[/QUOTE]
It wasn’t meant to be a justification. Unlike what you’ve been trying to do for 10’s of pages here, I’m not trying to dance about, handwave or justify a fucking thing. I’m saying that the mob violence was a direct result of the crack down of the government against any protest in their 180 degree change in direction, that there were several protesters tortured, a hell of a lot imprisoned and several killed BEFORE FUCKING FEBRUARY 18th. I really don’t know how to be more clear, and can’t for the life of me see why you can’t grasp that. I don’t expect you to agree, especially at this point since you’ve gone out of your way to handwave and and cheerlead for the former government, but for the sake of the gods can’t you at least try and grasp what I’m actually saying??
Um, no…my (fucking) point is that, despite similar levels of violence from the protesters the South Korean government didn’t need to resort to a bloodbath. It was a point brought up by several others, so at least here I can feel confident that the disconnect is with you, since I certainly understood what THEY were saying and was basically supporting their position.
The only one here trying to justify a gods damned thing is YOU, kimosabe.
No police were killed and things didn’t spin completely out of control because the South Korean government didn’t attempt to resort to draconian measures, didn’t kill a bunch of protesters and didn’t panic and start shooting them wholesale. Again, everyone else seemed to be able to grasp this point up thread…except you. I can’t tell whether it’s you trying to spin things or whether you really just can’t get it. Or whether further speculations of your motives need to go to that Pit thread on you. As in other threads with you, I’m baffled and just don’t know what to make of you.
The mob violence that began on February 18 2014 was a direct result of just that - mob violence. It was a direct result of criminals, thugs, and rioters who attacked police with paving rocks and petrol bombs and other weapons. Early in the riots the police were were guarding the Parliament of all Ukraine and were in defensive positions. You can continue to blame the ‘crack-down’ and violence prior to Feb 18 but the ‘crack down’ of January whatever does not excuse anyone to attack and kill police sworn to protect the government that wast voted into office by millions not behaving like murderous anti-government thugs on the morning of February 18.
Some started the day’s protester attacks by setting the Pariity of Region’s HQ on fire and killing an employee there. Molotov Cocktails do kill. When they do kill and burn people, those who throw them at police should not be surprised to be shot with real bullets by they government they are attempting to overthrow.
Observers should not blame the government for defending itself with lethal force against the 20,000 man menace that showed up at Parliament on February 18 and killed ten police before the day was over
So, basically same old same old. Same spin, same (feigned? real? both?) failure to understand the point or grasp that there were events that transpired before February 18th that triggered all of this stuff, same cheerleading and handwaving. 72 pages and counting, and the same horseshit over and over with you. sigh
I hope someone, somewhere got something out of this train wreck/cluster fuck. Hopefully the OP got the answer to his question and someone learned something.
This would be funny if it weren’t so sad vis-a-vis Russia’s masterful involvement in Syria: