I still can’t wrap my mind around the German logic of “It’s totally fine to send self-propelled howitzers like Panzerhaubitze to Ukraine, but we can’t send any tanks.” That hair-splitting of “this is a defensive weapon, this is an offensive weapon” is like saying it’s okay to wage war with swords but not with scimitars.
Germany has already said they “would not stand in the way” if Poland (or anyone else) provides Leopard tanks to Ukraine. Whether or not Germany sends tanks themselves, there is absolutely no way they will block other countries doing it. The ramifications would be ugly if they did so.
Yeah, possibly. And Germany is possibly losing out on a ton of future customers.
Germany’s gaining a reputation for not being supportive of Ukraine. That’s somewhat undeserved, but I don’t understand this.
Meh. If Germany is going to try to dictate how we can use tanks we buy from them, it makes buying tanks from them in the future much less attractive. It’s not like there aren’t alternatives. We can buy Abrams from the States, or Challengers from the UK, or once Poland has their production set up we can buy the K2 (South Korea’s MBT) from them, which could easily be the most cost effective option albeit probably not available for several years. All of those tanks are more or less on par with the Leopard. And let’s just try to imagine Poland telling their customers that they can’t send tanks purchased from them off to fight Russians.
You don’t recognize the historical baggage attached to a modern German tank potentially rolling over the Russian border?
I do recognize it but, again, it’s hair-splitting in the scheme of a much bigger war - and, again, hardly much more than the historical baggage of a German-made howitzer shelling Russian troops (which is already happening.)
The United States will also restrict who you re-export to.
Germany’s export control regime is almost identical to the US ITARS control system.
I think Germany might have some collective baggage in regards to past sins in the first half of the 20th Century that are coming into play with this. It’s a possibility.
Have to start somewhere.
The Guardian
Interesting news:
Yes, but Germany’s gone from being fascist (1940s) to now being unwilling to stand up against fascism (2020s.) Either way, it’s on the side of fascism, whether intentionally or not.
Modnote: The second half is a pretty extreme statement and does not fit into a breaking news thread. Stop trolling this thread now!
You are close to being the second poster ejected from it.
Der Spiegel and Politico
Dumb question but, given the prowess of systems like Javelin, what makes having a tank useful against enemy armor any more than, say, just Ukrainians driving around many pickup trucks with soldiers toting Javelins? The trucks would be a lot cheaper, faster and low-maintenance, and Javelins can take out Russian tanks, BMPs, any vehicle. Only downside is that they are wheeled and need roads.
At this rate it seems more like tanks are an anti-infantry weapon than anything.
This was a different thread.
Tanks give you a large-calibre direct fire gun that is highly mobile and relatively difficult to kill. It’s not just to kill enemy tanks. It can do a lot of things on the battlefield that no alternative unit can.
Like wipe out enemy infantry or making them run away in terror without looking back.
No, a giant wearing a holocaust cloak, riding in a wheelbarrow, and shouting “I’m the Dread Pirate Roberts. There will be no survivors!” can also make infantry run away in terror without looking back.
And what do you call the member of your adventuring party with the most hit points?
“The Charmed Meat Shield.”