We recently moved into a new, newly-remodeled house and almost immediately noticed a sagging floor. The floor in question is tongue-and-groove “click” flooring, and is a floating floor, and is directly above a large heat run that protrudes from the ceiling downstairs. (The heat run is not exposed, but is inside the drywall; the downstairs is finished, so no easy access there.)
It’s pretty clear (well, to me anyway) that the floor was not installed properly - I’m not sure what is supporting the flooring in the section in question, but I’d suspect nothing.
The house was remodeled in May 2018. The contractor was not hired by us - the house was remodeled before we purchased it, so we have no direct connection with the contractor. We learned their name through the city’s permit office. (We live in WA.)
So my question is twofold:
Is the contractor in any way responsible for the repairs (or for reimbursement of us getting it repaired)? Is there any point in contacting the contractor, a contractor board, or anything?
Is the “best” way to fix this issue to take up a fair chunk of the flooring upstairs (since it is tongue and groove), expose the area in question, and then add sub-floor or whatever support is needed?
(I know that’s hard to say without seeing it, but I’ve been led to believe that taking up flooring from the edge somewhere and keep removing it until you get to the area in question.)
As Kayaker notes, you had your chance to identity problems in the home during the inspection process, and you could have forced the seller to address the issue, before you closed on the house.
Unless explicitly stated that the craftsmen/contractor warranty transfers to the buyer of the house, then I’d say you are SOL.
We did purchase the house, and unfortunately, the home inspector did not note the problem (and we were not present for the inspection). It’s gotten worse over time, so it may not even have been noticeable.
Yes, I suspect we are SOL, which is fine (I mean, it sucks, but that’s what I figured). That’s why I posted my follow-up question of the best way to repair.
During the remodel, was a wall moved or floor joists replaced? I am not familiar with why a floor would sag due to a remodel. The only way to repair a floor sag is either to rip out the floor and ceiling coverings and put in a new structural member (such as a beam) OR to put a post underneath the sag. You need to move the load of the floor to places where the structure can hold it- support walls, concrete basement, etc.
You may have a shot with having a fix down not at your cost by the previous contractor IF you can demonstrate that they pulled permits and then removed structural elements and somehow the building inspection wasn’t done to close the permits. I think this unlikely, but I can’t imagine how else a floor is sagging noticeably after a remodel a year ago other than someone got too “open floor plan happy”.
But in all cases, having a quick look by a general contractor or a building engineer is going to be your best place to start. But I’m going to bet that you aren’t goign to do the fix that is suggested due to cost and disruption.
I don’t know what was done in the remodel, unfortunately.
I suspect the heating ducts were redone, moved, etc., and in the combination of moving those and installing new flooring, they didn’t put in the proper subfloor? I think there should be a floor joist underneath the sagging area and there isn’t one because of the large heating duct that’s there instead.
The sagging area runs parallel to the orientation of the floor joists - that’s why I suspect that’s the case.
I don’t know, if the floating flooring were to be removed, what the best way is to support it since there IS a heating duct in the way, but there must be some way to shore it up.
To be clear, I think it’s just the flooring that’s sagging / soft, not the actual floor. (By which I mean, if you were to stand downstairs and someone walked on the sagging part upstairs, you’re not going to see anything.) I say that only because you suggested (possibly) a post underneath the sag, but I don’t see how that would help in this case.
And I think we need to do whatever fix is suggested - eventually, the flooring will break. The sagging has gotten more noticeable in just the month that we’ve lived here.
My hope is the solution is just taking up the floating flooring, putting some sort of a brace underneath, and replacing the flooring. But things never seem to work out that way.
A floating floor is going to follow the contour of the subfloor.
So, if it it sagging, that’s because the subfloor is sagging, which is probably because the trusses supporting it are spaced too far apart, or are spanning too great a distance.
So, the only way to fix it is to install additional support (maybe an I-beam) under the floor.
I think the trusses are too far apart because of the ducting that was put in.
In the downstairs area, directly underneath the sagging floor, is the soffit around the duct. The soffit is 34 inches wide.
I assume that the ductwork is installed beneath the joists (rather than between the joists, since 34 inches between joists is obviously way too far), but maybe a joist was removed while doing the ductwork and not replaced?
The original contractor is coming out next week to look at it - as stated above, we don’t believe they’re under any obligation to fix it, but we also figured they may know the root of the problem and we do have to have it fixed. There’s some question about their… trustworthiness, if their work caused the problem in the first place, but we figure it’s at least somewhere to start.
You’re mentioning the floating flooring, but that’s not part of the issue. The floating flooring provides no structural value. Think of it basically like carpet. If you pull it up, you’ll find some thin padding and then below that are plywood sheets which are attached to the joists. The plywood sheet is what is sagging. Talking about the floating flooring may be confusing the issue. It’s the plywood sheets beneath the flooring which will need to be shored up.
You may actually want to get an independent contractor to come in first and bid on the job. The original contractor isn’t going to be motivated to fix anything and may tell you everything is fine or do some crappy patch job. An independent contractor will likely tell you what really needs to be done. Don’t tell the independent contractor you’re going to have the original contractor come look at it. Approach it as if you want a quote from the independent contractor to do the fix. You may end up going with them anyway to avoid any potential hassles from shoddy repairs from the original contractor.
Yes, I understand that the floating floor is not the real issue, and the issue is whatever is (or is not) underneath the flooring. (But no harm in you clarifying - thanks!)
My goal in having the original contractor taking a look is more that they may know what the issue is without removing the floor first. They may not. But having them come out puts us under no obligation, and I’ll definitely take anything they say with a grain of salt. And we will probably go with a new contractor to have the work done, yes.
Thanks everyone for the tips, clarifications, and ideas.
Is the sagging part in an area that might have gotten long-term water damage?
I like the theory that the HVAC contractor removed something structural, too. If they did, it wouldn’t have passed the code inspection, which could mean there was no inspection because the work wasn’t permitted.
If the sellers disclosure says that no non-permitted work was performed, I’d imaging there’s something that can be done about that.
There are no other signs of water damage and I don’t see anything that would lead me to believe that’s the case. (Which isn’t to say that it isn’t the cause, but I doubt it.)
The work was permitted, but there is an “Enforcement Action” with a description of “Demo of the interior of the house without permits” in the Permit Report.
It’s weird, because they did get a permit for the remodel (and plumbing, electrical, and mechanical) BEFORE the date of the enforcement action - a few months before, in fact. So it isn’t clear to me why there was an enforcement action regarding demo of the interior when the remodel permit, issued 3 months before, lists “Remodel kitchen, bathrooms…”
(Incidentally, the sagging in question is in the kitchen.)
The Mechanical part of the permit, which was the furnace replacement, was permitted and was inspected and approved. Also, the Framing was approved.
The Final Building Inspection was NOT completed - there were corrections issued on 3/18/2019 by the inspector. (Those corrections did not have anything to do with the problem at hand.) But those changes were never inspected (in fact, I need to check and see if they were completed - they’re all minor.)
I’m not sure what the Sellers Disclosure stated - I didn’t purchase the house, my significant other did.
To add on, in the Seller’s Disclosure, section 4. Structural:
Have there been any conversions, additions or remodeling (YES box checked)
If yes, were all building permits obtained? (YES)
If yes, were all final inspections obtained (YES)
Again, I’m not clear on the enforcement action given the existence of the building permit, but I do know that not all final inspections were obtained.
Can you quantify how much sag there is (how much lower the floor is in the center of the sag vs. the perimeter of the room)? Is the floor springy over the sag?
You say that it feels like only the flooring is sagging. Engineered flooring has a requirement for flatness of the subfloor if it is to be installed floating. Sometimes the underlayment (the padding/vapor barrier laid down before the flooring) can mask problems with an uneven floor; as the padding compresses over time/use the unevenness can become more apparent. Foreign objects (nails, large splinters) that get covered up by the flooring can also cause problems.
It’s tough to quantify. I’d say it’s significant, maybe between 1/4 and 1/2 an inch? But extremely tough to quantify.
It’s a little springy, yes.
Ultimately, we’re going to have to have the flooring taken up in order to fix the problem, at which point we’ll see what’s going on underneath it. I don’t see any way to fix the problem without taking up the flooring (even if we knew what the problem was).
(Which isn’t to say I’m not enjoying the speculative answers!)
1/4" sag? pfft. live in a 150yo house some time where (2) 1X4 boards run under the front side of my dressers so the drawers stay closed.
Your 34" soffit sounds the right width to span 2 16" or three 10" on center joists. The heat runs in one and a cool air return in the other. What comes out of the soffit by the furnace? There may be other mechanicals inside the soffit also such as water or sewage. I’m not following why the floor was pulled open to run the ductwork in when the basement below was accessible. My guess is some old forgotten hole was covered with the thin subfloor instead of being patched properly. How old is the house? Was there once a stairwell or wall in the area in question?
1/4" sag? pfft. live in a 150yo house some time where (2) 1X4 boards run under the front side of my dressers so the drawers stay closed.[/q]
Ok, so if it’s a contest, you win.
I don’t know that the floor was pulled to do the ductwork - the fact that the floor is sagging directly over the ductwork may be a coincidence, or related in some other way. I’m just speculating.
I don’t believe there is anything other than two ducts inside the soffit - I can see the exposed ducts (heat / cool air return) in the adjacent furnace room, and their total width is just shy of 34". There’s also no sign of anything else entering the soffit from the adjacent furnace room.
It may be an old forgotten hole, sure.
The house is 1965.
I don’t believe there would have been a stairwell nor wall in the area in question - certainly not a stairwell, and I can’t imagine a configuration of the house in which a wall would have been there.
1/4" to 1/2" sag, but how wide? Over a whole room that’s nothing, but between two joists that’s a major dip, more like a trench in the middle of an otherwise flat floor. How old is the house? That would determine the type of subfloor, which has different characteristics. Older houses from the pre-WWII era have tongue-and-groove plank subfloors, usually at a 45º angle, whereas post-WWII houses are going to be plywood. Those respond differently to having a joist removed or cut, if that’s what happened.
Considering the apparent scope of the remodel, there’s five permits that should have been issued: demo, building, mechanical, electrical, and plumbing. Sometimes demo and building permits are combined, but a lot of the time a contractor will pull a demo permit so they can get started while the building permit is under review. It sounds like in your jurisdiction demo permits might be required regardless of whether a building permit has been issued. Here’s the critical thing though, if all inspections weren’t completed, then no certificate of occupancy was granted. Do you know if that’s the case? That could be a problem, because it basically means you can’t live there legally until the final inspection is completed. As far as the city is concerned the house is still under construction.
If they claimed inspections were done and they weren’t you might have a legal case. However, it’s unlikely to be worth pursuing unless the repairs are very expensive as lawyers are very expensive.
If you could verify that the contractor compromised one or more of the joists in doing the work, you might have an actionable situation. Your state or local building code will describe exactly how much of a structural member can be removed or notched, the minimum spacing, etc. I have definitely seen situations where a drain pipe was installed and the plumber notched a structural member enough so that it started to sag. A complaint was filed and the situation was eventually corrected (at some significant expense).