It’s kind of ironic that the same people who said the UN was irrelevant and the UN not authorising the invasion was irrelevant try to justify the invasion with arguments by the UN. The fact is that the UN never authorised the invasion. The fact is the UN (and that means the international community) did not see the danger posed by Iraq. That is the fact.
Has said UN condemned the US for the invasion of Iraq?
You also have to love the casual hand-waving dismissals with which this topic is now approached by any number of the hawks.
“Oh, just another Bush-bashing thread…yawn”
Never mind that these are mostly the same bunch that only a couple of months ago took extreme exception at the mere mention of the possibility that the US was being railroaded into a war of choice, based on lies and misrepresentations.
“Why you (pick one or more: unpatriotic, anti-American, pinko commie, liberal trash, etc.) how dare you suggest such a thing! Look at the ample evidence, they cried! Colin at the UN, Mr pResident’s speeches at the UN! Cinci! the SOTU! Rummie’s “bullet-proof” assertions! Chaney’s assurances! And not only that, we’re sure there’s tons of super-duper-secret-ultra-classified, if-we-tell-you-will-have-to-kill-you, intel, that our leaders are acting on for our safety! Ungrateful bastards!”
Now, they are simply reduced to reciting the pundit d’jour, with whatever shifting excuse they’ve managed to fabricate. And when all else fails, there’s always that old staple, throw good old vituperations around, act a-completely blasé about the whole thing, b-feign dignified outrage, or simply retreat back into bunker mentality. “Move along now folk, nothing to see here, just another git complaining about us killing a bunch of innocent people under false premises and outright lies while shitting on the rest of the world. More coffee?”
Right. I also have no doubt that if wishes were horses all of this would be conveniently swept under the rug. Or should that be under “The Star-spangled Banner That Can Do No Wrong.”? Well fuck it. They aren’t and this isn’t. And people like me will keep harping on this until we see proper accountability and some heads rolling. Whether that is a pipe dream or not remains to be seen. But it won’t be for lack of trying that these conniving bastards will get away with what they’ve done.
Hey, I come from the land of Don Quijote, I’m used to tilting at windmills. In the meantime, keep drinking coffee and dreaming-up new conquests. Preferably against resource rich third-world nations with dilapidated militaries. If they resist, call them ‘terrorists’ and ‘inminent threats,’ scare the children, shroud yourselves in the flag and be done with it.
Fuckin’ brilliant plan in it’s simplicity. And time-tested to boot. As is the downside. Ignoring it won’t make it go away.
Hopefully, neither will threads like this one.
Airman Doors himself claimed access to this super-duper, ultra-secret intel.
So where is it, Airman? I’ll go over in my Ford Crown Vic LTD to get it and give it to Faux News, if you have it.
Somehow, I think I’ll be waiting til Hell freezes over for it.
I think you answered your own question when you said “super-duper, ultra-secret”. What makes you think I’d want to go to jail?
In any event, I conceded a long time ago that a) I hate being lied to, and b) I may have been lied to. What more do you want?
BTW, I loathe Crown Vics. Keep it away from me.
Airman: I’ll admit I missed those admissions.
In which case, why’d you post what you posted here if you hate being lied to? Color me utterly confused.
Basically, I posted that because it’s been done to death, and clubbing me to death with something, even if it is correct, just pisses me off.
What has this board become, anyway? A contest to see who can come up with the most clever way to say the same thing? Reeder, elucidator, rjung, and now RedFury are all seemingly in a contest to see who can be the liberal december, i.e. too clever for their own good. At first I was thinking it was Reeder, hands down, but now it’s too close to call.
Other than myself, right there, I haven’t seen anyone clubbing you personally, but then again I might have missed that too.
These are just words and text on a message board with little real consequence, whereas the lies of our wonderful government have just a bit more consequence. Your anger is misdirected, to put it mildly.
I’m old enough to remember when the liar was a liberal Texas Democrat, rather than the conservative Texas Republican we’ve got up there now. The consequence of the lies was exactly the same: a guerrilla war with no end in sight. This one has just started, so there’s hope still that it might end OK. But to say the prognosis ain’t good is an understatement.
And you should do yourself a favor and read the linked New Yorker article in the GD thread started by SimonX. These idiots pulled people out of the hunt for Bin Laden to concentrate on Iraq.
Remember, the guy who gets to be President is always the same personality type: power hungry and ruthless. That’s why they wrote the Constitution the way they did, but it will only work if the people make sure it does. It may seem like repetitious bashing to you, but it reflects real anger: in my case, it’s because I went through that damn surreal day looking at that smoking hole all freakin’ day from not very far away, and then watched it continue to smoke for months afterwards. As far as I’m concerned, that kumquat in the White House has squandered the moral force of going after the criminal who did that with this idiotic vendetta, and the result has so far not been pretty and will only get worse unless something drastic is done to salvage the situation. I don’t know about anyone else on this board, but at this point, my anger at that asshole is bottomless. I want him out of there in the worst way. We haven’t had it this bad since that liberal Texas Democrat was in there.
Airman, as a non-American and in the narrow scope of the context that I’ve presented my views here, I find your use of the “liberal” epithet rather meaningless – unless that’s how you chose to label those of us who stood against this particularly nefarious chapter in American adventurism. A definition so diluted as to become meaningless, would you not agree? After all, on this particular issue, it encompasses an overwhelming majority of humanity.
You also contend that I am flogging a dead horse by rehashing the litany of misrepresentations and outright lies used to justify this particularly nefarious chapter of American adventurism and then go on to liken me to a number of posters that have been rather strident in their opposition. Well, bully for me and them if that’s the case, for I obviously couldn’t agree more. See, the horse is far from dead. For the very reasons presented here both in my last post and rather well summed-up by pantom in his, nothing but a picture of its rotting corpse will do for me*. So no, I am not even remotely deterred from taking up this topic time and again. In fact, I am of the opinion that it is of the essence to keep it front and center. But since we’re throwing meaningless labels around, that would be extreme “left” to you.
To put it simply, in my 47 years on earth I had yet to see a more transparently conniving, bumbling and inept American administration – and that is saying something, since I am no great fan of American foreign policy to begin with. Since you seem to be chomping at the bit to jump to conclusions, I’ll also add, FWIW which I suspect is little, that I supported the interventions in Kosovo and Afghanistan, as well as the first GW. For that matter, I’d be firmly on the side of your country if you chose to take unilateral action in places such as Rwanda, Congo or Liberia.
As for your comparison to december, I must admit to getting a chuckle out it. Because as underhanded insults go on this board, there’s none worse than being likened to that cretin – nice shot!
In that vein, are you sure you’re not his ideological cousin? 
TTFN
*metaphorically speaking, current events notwithstanding.
“nefarious chapter of American adventurism”
Ugh! :smack:
Once was OK, twice isn’t.
Preview being my friend an all that…anyway, mentally edit one of the two and substitute for your own (negative please!) depiction. i.e. “invasion” would do just fine in the second instance.
Apologies.
Yeesh, least inspired performance by the Apoligista’s in a while.
I remember back 2 months ago you guys were at least trying to pretend Bush wasn’t lying through is teeth about WMD, Al Queda ties, the bogus Nuke claim ect. . . Now its just driveby personal insults and run away.
Lets see:
Have we found Bin Laden yet? No.
Have we stopped Al Queda yet? No.
Have we rebuilt or even stabilizied Afganistan yet? No.
Has the economy recovered due to the massive tax cuts yet? No.
Has unemployement dropped down from decade long highs from the massive tax cuts yet? No.
Has the huge holes punched in the State’s budget’s by the Bush Administration’s fiscal policies been addressed? No.
Have we found tons of WMDs ready to go in 45 minutes as claimed? No.
Have we found tons of WMDs then? No.
Have we found ANY WMDs then? No.
Have we even found any stinking WMD “programs”? No.
Found those ties to Al Queda then? No.
Is Iraq secure yet? No.
Is there any end in sight to our occupation? No.
Any hope of addressing the massive federal budget deficits Bush has cut and spent his way into? No.
Do any independent economists not think that the tax cuts didn’t have a great deal to do with said massive deficits? No.
How about Alan Greenspan- he must agree with the president’s assertions regarding the tax cuts, right? No.
Did Bush cut taxs for his wealthy corporate and individual masters first chance he got? Yes.
Did he pander to right-wing religious extremists demands regarding education, abortion rights, gay rights and judicial appointments? Yes.
See- he doesn’t lie all the time. Hang your hat on that Apoligistas.
:rolleyes:
Damn that last post is depressing.
“But hey! He didn’t lie about a blowjob!”
:rolleyes:
Who’s running? Surely not I.
I believe some of the stuff you wrote in that post, and yes, it does suck, and yes, I was under the impression that Bush would be a good President, and yes, I voted for him.
However, it is already my stated intention to vote for whomever runs against him in 2004. So don’t try to beat me to death with the “Apologista” label. I stopped with that a long time ago. But I’ll tell you what, this is as annoying to me as “Blowjob! Blowjob! Blowjob!” is to you guys. About Bush, I was wrong. Wait one, I’ll say it even louder:
I WAS WRONG!
The stated reasons were erroneous at best. Do I believe they have WMDs still? Yes. But not ready to go at a moment’s notice. That was quite obviously wrong. Do I believe that Saddam was a threat? The UN declared him in material breach, he had been a threat in the past, and I thought he would be in the future. Do I believe that him being gone is a good thing? Yes I do, but that’s not really what we’re talking about here, so that doesn’treally matter.
Was I wrong to believe in my government? No, I don’t think so. Was I wrong to go over there and fight? No, I don’t think so. Was I wrong to support the war? At the time, I didn’t think so. So, what recourse do I have now? None, until 2004. But in the meantime, just because Bush hiccups at a press conference doesn’t mean that one of you guys should start some big circle-jerk over it. Yet that’s what we have here.
And for better or worse, that’s how I see it.
Airman Doors, USAF I was mostly talking about couple “post and runners” above you. Seeing you had posted multiple times unlike the arch Apologista.
Although you did in fact post:
Which had nothing to do with the topic and everything to do with going after the posters rather then the post. So my post applied in part to you as well. But you never ran away like december does.
A few more points:
For you its a “hiccup” for others its another failed attempt at spin control caught live where the Pubbies cannot deny it happened.
I don’t think anyone has said that here have they? Our military does the best they can given the moronic orders they get.
The fact that the fucking people most gungho for this war were the damn chickenhawks who avoided service at all costs themselves is doubly annoying to me. I did my four years (including a tour of the Gulf) without Daddy pulling strings for me when the crap hit the fan.
That they have tried to stiffle the opinions of the actual military members over there just fucking sickens me. Just what “freedoms” are they fighting for?
Yes you were. Unfortunately, short of punishing those responsible (Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld) and protecting the lives of American soldiers over there, it is going to be damn hard to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
If lying about a BJ gets you impeached what does a series of lies costing hundreds of American causualties get you?
Airman, while I can understand your annoyance with yet another soap-in-the-towel scene on the President, I thought you might like a long-term perspective.
The American people are forgetful, and easily distracted. This time next year you might be seeing a rash of threads saying bullshit like, “Married Gay Couple Keeps Teenage Adoptee From Going to Church Social.” It’s distraction, designed to change the rules of a game our leaders clearly didn’t play well.
Mark my words, the people in power have only a few tools left in the box to use on an increasingly doubtful American public, and they will use them. They’re going to try hard to put us back to sleep, or distract us, or scare us into voting for them, or disgust us away from the polls. They have to because chances are they’re not going to win on their collective record.
I’m really glad to hear that you’ve taken a look at what has happened and have decided to do something about it next year. As far as I’m concerned that’s a victory over the forces of blindness, and I hope that the SDMB has played a small role in helping you come to your decision.
But many, many more people do not have the thinking skills or the courage to publicly recant their stance as you have done. I among others feel I have to continue to point out the manipulation and hypocrisy which led us to where we are today, because I’m afraid that if I don’t talk about this to someone every day, the American people will forget again and allow those people to continue their self-serving ways.
And seriously, I’m getting tired of it too. I’m getting tired of having to say it over and over while judgment is suspended because of the political tide. I’m getting tired of watching these guys weasel around over a matter of my nation’s security. And I’m getting tired of watching a small army of sophists desperately try to cover up a shameful event in my nation’s history with whatever Rush tells them is the right thing to say this week about what happened back then.
Sometimes in these situations I have resorted to what I think is humor and derision, because frankly I’m getting bored and frustrated about it, too.
But I won’t stop talking about it, because I’m afraid–and I mean it, afraid–that if we the people don’t take responsibility for our own nation at the polls next year by kicking this guy out, my country may find itself in as much trouble as it ever has. Don’t forget. Don’t let anyone else forget. That’s my mantra these days.
And as always, Airman Doors, USAF, you have my gratitude and admiration for serving me and our country. I’ll never be able to properly thank you and everyone else with whom you serve for your courage and dedication. Above and beyond that you’re a genuine class act, which is why I took the time to ramble on so just now.
First off, Airman, my full apologies for slamming you up there.
Second, I heard tonight the truly uplifting news that 22% of white American males disagree with Bush enough to vote against him in the next election. All of 1 in 5 men of the dominant voting bloc think what he did was a bad thing.
And I wonder why I’ve had a headache all day.