Sam Stone believes Trump's tweets

According to Chevy’s promotional materials circa 1980 (yes, I actually looked this up), you were supposed to be able to take “three fun-loving friends” with you on trips in the Chevette. By “fun-loving” I think they meant 5 foot 6 or shorter and no more than 130 pounds. If you compare rear seat dimensions, the Chevette and Spark actually are pretty similar on leg room. Head room is a few inches less in the Spark, but hip room (however that’s figured) is significantly better than the Chevette. On the other hand, the Chevette had a Body by Fisher - yes, that actually was a promotional deal back then.

I’m happy to acknowledge that car quality is much better now.* What all of this has to do with the virtues of Reaganomics remains something of a mystery.

*remembering my first car, a Chevy Vega that for a long time had to be started by opening the hood and connecting two terminals with the aid of a screwdriver.

So, kind of like “fun-sized” candy bars?

ninja’d

I’m more thinking of the target market. All cars have grown, so the back seat of a 2021 Corolla is much more usable than the back seat of a 1980 Corolla, but it’s my understanding that both cars are marketed to/purchased as entry level family sedans. I’m under the impression that the Chevette targeted that same market, so that it would be more equivalent to today’s Cruze. But I was barely alive in 1980 so I have no clue.

To continue my reasoning, the Spark isn’t even one step down from the Cruze in terms of size, it’s two, with the Sonic in between. It’s really a very small car, clever packaging notwithstanding, and would have competed against the likes of the Honda N600 (had it remained in production).

Of course none of this DOES have anything to do with Reaganomics but it’s a lot more fun to talk about cars :slight_smile:

The Laffer curve is the economic foundation of supply side economics, Sam. To defend Supply Side and Trickle Down you are, by default, defending Laffer. It’s like defending the theory of relativity without math, but then saying “I said NOTHING about e=mc^2!”

This is what I mean by you not really understanding the subject. You are sloppy with your definitions.

And, instead of arguing about it, we can just see what people more educated than you and I together say about what the proper point of the Laffer curve should be:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/08/where_does_the_laffer_curve_be.html

The answer is about 70%. Which was achieved in 1981. Which means that pushing further tax cuts based upon supply-side and trickle-down economic theory past 1981 is not even supported by the supply side and trickle-down economic theory you adhere to.

For 40 years, we’ve been having quinine poured down our throats, long past the first initial fear of malarial infection. No wonder this country is economically sick.

The argument that it is fine to lose $42,000 a year in annual income because we have better variants of things which existed in 1975 is a :man_cook: :kiss: example of someone drinking the ideological kool-aid.

Children love fun, right? Problem. Solved.

Quick Sam remind us that you’re not an American and your not defending American Supply Side and Trickle Down economics!

Just read the car discourse. Here is my response:

I will gladly trade all the accelerated technological progress Sam tells us was achieved via Trickle Down economics for an additional $42k a year. And if this means I go back to books and dial-up and Chevy Chevettes and talking to people face-to-face, eh, that’s fine by me.

Interesting that Sam feels that better and more reliable cars, fast computers, broadband internet, and the Kindle are all due to bogus supply-side Reaganomics theory, despite the fact that Reagan was a moron and Arthur Laffer was a fraud.

I’m reminded of the famous quote from the American journalist Michael Kinsley. He was treated for Parkinson’s Disease through a delicate process called Deep Brain Stimulation (DBS). After the surgery his doctors wanted to assess his cognitive state, fearing possible brain damage. When they asked him how he was feeling, his first words were: “Well, of course, when you cut taxes, government revenues go up. Why couldn’t I see that before?” :grinning:

No, it absolutely is not. I suppose if you consider supply-side as a political movement started by specific people such as Laffer and Jude Wanniski, you might have a point. But supply-side as a general economic idea goes all the way back to Adam Smith.

And the concept that less tax and regulation will make an economy more dynamic and faster growing goes back even earlier. The Hanseatic League created a low-tax free trade zone by getting Henry II to exempt them from the typically heavy tariffs kings of the day imposed on trade. They also handled another form of ‘tax’ - banditry - by raising their own protection forces. The result was an explosion of economic growth. Supply side economics.

Supply side economics is not even just about tax cuts. Supply side economics has three legs - tax policy, regilatory policy, and trade. Supply siders believe in lower taxes, lower regulations, and free trade. The Laffee Curve doesn’t even address the last two, for God’s sake, and it’s not necessary for the first.

I can support lower taxes even if I think it will reduce government revenue. For example, I may think the government already takes in too much and should have its revenue reduced. It’s also possible to be a supply sider and think taxes are about right. For example, if you think the deficit is more important and should be paid down, or if you think taxes are low enough and focus on reducing regulatory barriers and barriers to trade. That’s pretty much where I am.

The Laffer curve has been latched onto by Republicans for the same reason the ‘fiscal multiplier’ was latched onto by demand siders - it’s a political tool used to defang the arguments of the other side. Both are have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too ideas that politicians use to claim that their policiex will be self-financing. But the Laffer Curve is no more necessary to Supply Side as the fiscal multiplier is to Keynesian economics.

The Laffer curve is similar to multipliers in another fundamental way: both theories can be correct given the right circumstances, but have been applied by their adherents as universal truths that apply in all economic conditions.

Another definition of supply-side economics is as the reciprocal of demand-side economics, which says that taxing or borrowing money then handing it out to the people will stimulate the economy. Again, both are true in limited scenarios, but wildly overapplied. Fiscal stimulus as conceived by Keynes was only supposed to apply to recessions when there is a temporary demand shortfall. But now it’s common for the left to talk about all government spending as ‘stimulus’, even when the economy is doing fine and there are shortages of both material and labor. That’s the fault of politicians and idealogues, not economic theory.

Funny, I never mentioned Reagan or Reaganomics. My point was that pure income-based comparisons of the poor now with the poor 40 years ago misses a lot of non-income improvements to the quality of life that were funded by rich people and trickled down to everyone else. Gordon Gekko in Wall Street was depicted as being rich in part because he had a phone on the beach. A gigantic brick-shaped cell phone with a 3 foot antenna. Now you can buy ‘burner’ phones at 7-11 for thirty bucks that fit in a shirt pocket.

More seriously, the poor today are likely to have amenities such as washers and dryers, microwave ovens, air conditioning, etc. Back innthe day, the rich had servants for the home, while the poor washed their dishes, hung their clothes out to dry, and in general sis a lot more labor around the home. I grew up in a house without such things, and remember jow hard my grandmother had tomwork just to wash clothes and put dinner on the table. Life innthe home is much easier now for poor people.

Educationally, when I was a kid I was at a disadvantage because the rich kids had encyclopedias ($2,000 for a set, in 1980 money). People used to take out loans and have monthly payments on their encyclopedias. Poor rural kids didn’t even have a library to go to. I don’t kmow if young people today understand just how difficult it was to learn anything outside of school before the internet, if you didn’t have wealth to buy books ans encyclopedias. Now, everyone has the internet.

Speaking of that… One of the best examples of ‘trickle down’ I can think of is Starlink, which promises to bring high speed internet to poor people around the world. Perhaps one of the biggest improvements in the standard of living some people have ever seen. And it wouldn’t exist if a billionaire had not been allowed to keep most of his money and spend it on a dream of building reusable rockets that could go to Mars.

The internet itself is a huge breaker of class barriers. For all you know, I could be a billionaire. Or I could be a street person. Back in the day, entertainments that were available to rich people (travel, operas, restaurants, high society) were utterly unavailable to the poor. Now even lower-middle class people can afford to fly, even the poor can have large flat-panel TVs, and the internet is one giant milieu of people from all classes.

That’s an… interesting approach to awarding credit for “improvements to the quality of life”.

Doesn’t matter if a particular improvement was invented, developed or marketed by middle-class people, or manufactured, delivered or serviced by working-class ones, or whatever.

As long as it was “funded by rich people”, then rich people are the only ones who get the credit for it, and “everyone else” is merely getting it “trickled down” to them through the benevolent genius of the rich.

Sam reminisces on the glory days of his youth,

:thinking:

I know this is the pit and all, but good on ya, @Sam_Stone, for engaging in a way that promotes discussion. I’m enjoying the back-and-forth (and learning in the process!)

?? What “day” are we supposed to be “back in” at this point?

Cheap versions of travel, operas, and restaurants were by no means “utterly unavailable to the poor” fifty years ago. For instance, in 1979 you could get a cheap seat for a grand opera production at the Metropolitan Opera in NYC for as low as $8 (about $30 in today’s money), or a standing-room ticket for as low as $3 (under $12 today. Think you can see an opera at the Met today from anywhere in the theater for under $12?). Poor people traveled on cheap buses and train carriages, and ate at cheap restaurants.

Sure, poor people back in the day couldn’t get the same luxury versions of those experiences that rich people got, but they can’t get them today, either. Poor people still can’t afford an expensive box at the Met, or a high-priced luxury restaurant, or travel in first class.

And poor people by definition have never been able to mix in “high society”, meaning the society of exclusive circles of rich people. Never have and still can’t.

So at this point, Sam, I think you’re just maundering on about the “bad old days”. None of this stuff has any relevance to whether and why it was necessary for the real incomes of the non-wealthy to essentially stagnate for the past 50 years, while the real incomes of the wealthy have substantially increased.

The The New Republic article fails to put most of their claims in any kind of context. For instance, it brings up a $495M loan to Tesla for the development of alternative energy vehicles. That much is true. But they fail to mention that Tesla paid back the loan quickly (with interest). They also fail to mention that Ford got $5.9 billion from the same loan program (and taking much longer to pay it back), or that Tesla did much more with their money than Ford did (creating the highly successful Model S almost a decade ahead of Ford’s first decent EV).

Not “everyone”, actually: about 1 in 20 students have no internet access at all in their homes. In other words, probably about the same percentage that couldn’t get any books in their homes fifty years ago.

The sort of technological improvements that you’re talking about have always happened.
The 1950s through the 1970s saw color television, stereo recordings, portable radios, VCRs, and microwave ovens become common household items. It’s not like trickle-down economics and low tax rates on the wealthy unleashed some golden age of innovation. The innovations of the last 40 years do not vindicate the economic policies of that era. We would have big-screen TVs and cell phones regardless, because there was money to be made by inventing them. All we have to show for a generation of tax cuts is debt that will be paid by our grandchildren.

I’m going to ask for a cite, again, for the bolded part. According to my search:

$1400, and that was in 2012.