No, it would make whoever caused the accident responsible for Bland’s suicide. If you accept the logic that assigns responsibility to the arresting officer for her death.
Regards,
Shodan
Are you saying that if things were different, things would be different?
No, not at all. I am saying why she was suicidal is not the point. She told them she had tried suicide before. There are procedures in place when dealing with a possibly suicidal prisoner which weren’t followed.
If things were different, things would, in fact, be different.
People have blamed the sheriff, the police dept., jail personnel, racism, the “man”, the “system”, and camille even blamed me, for killing Bland. As it turned out, Sandra Bland killed herself. I believe that if there is going to be a discussion about why Bland died, there is no reason not to include the actions of the Bland family and their possible effects on Sandra Bland’s state of mind.
Change is constant therefore if things were different, things would be exactly the same.
But in a different way.
Again I point out that the difference is that the public doesn’t have the same kind of representational interest in Bland’s family’s behavior as we do in the behavior of the sheriff in running his jail.
I will happily concede, arguendo, that if Bland’s family were better, more caring, or possibly simply wealthier people, Bland may not have remained locked up. But I don’t believe that gives the public an action item to debate; Bland’s family is not executing public policy.
But the sheriff is.
So, given my concession, can we now turn our attention to the jail procedures?
Am I correct in saying there are different rules, limitations and procedures if the jail is dealing with a suicidal inmate?
She had a history of attempted suicide (IIRC), epilepsy, and depression, and yet she wasn’t put on some sort of suicide watch or some other means of special attention. No matter that Bland killed herself, she was under the jail’s custody and fully responsible for her well being.
That’s a worthwhile suggestion. What specifically are the jail procedures, and what should trigger putting an inmate on suicide watch?
Ms. Bland gave conflicting answers on her jail intake forms - both saying that she had never been depressed, was currently very depressed, had previously attempted suicide, and allegedly told a jailer that she was not depressed but just upset about her arrest.
I don’t know much about the specifics of suicide prevention in Texas. All I could find from a quick Google is this -
I can’t find anything on how it is determined if an inmate is at high risk for suicide. Bland was apparently not judged to be so, since she did not wear the paper gown and was only checked every hour.
FWIW the same cite says -
White privilege strikes again.
Regards,
Shodan
You have always been free to discuss any aspect of the Bland incident that you wish. I guess there is some question as to whether I enjoy that same freedom?
Your speaking from a legal standpoint. It appears that you’ve been patiently dealing with people who do not care what the law says, or prefer to substitute their own reality for established statute. Good luck with that.
I’m addressing the moral obligation of a family to it’s own. If the Bland family were better, more caring, or possibly simply wealthier people, it’s possible that Sandra would not have had to leave Illinois to find a home, find a job, or, possibly, escape the influences of her family.
up_the_junction has gone so far as to introduced the idea of the evils of suburbia and/or family life. How dare a family support family members. How dare a family member expect support from their family. What kind of twisted logic is that?
Perhaps gang affiliation, ideologies, or a political party has replaced the family as a means of support?
Familys are complicated. Have you ever had a family member who got arrested multiple times for traffic offenses? At some point I’m sure a family will let the person stay in the can for a while anyway, esp if it’s a burden to get them out. Nobody knew this would be such a fateful weekend for Ms Bland.
Of course you do. I’m inviting you to discuss this particular aspect of the issue; you’re free to disregard my invitation and continue your own way.
Yes: that happens on the SDMB on days that end in ‘y’.
Yes, for the purposes of this discussion, I absolutely concede that point.
Well, we could drag in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and speculate about which needs are met by which of those systems, I suppose. But you’ve already observed the willingness of many people to reject clear law in favor of repeating their own assertions about what the law is, as though repetition could transform fact. How much more unconstrained would such a rhetor be if I engaged in a discussion like that, where there are fewer, if any, objectively provable facts?
No, I decline to speculate about the reasons for a family to support, or fail to support, one of its members.
The standards used at the jail, in contrast, is a subject at least nominally grounded in provable assertions.
I don’t see why doorhinge is jumping around all this rhetoric about her family, when he’s already made his opinion clear that her suicide is no one’s fault but her own.
Well, in general, I agree with that sentiment: her suicide is her fault.
But I’d contend that as a society, we have an interest in helping people who are struck by a suicidal impulse to work past it instead of give in to it. That doesn’t make a completed suicide anyone else’s fault, but it does express the aspiration that our various agencies will have controls in place to lessen someone bringing fault on themselves like that.
Of course. That’s why suicide prevention is very much an issue of the day. But when someone commits suicide while in custody it is ridiculous to focus on why the family didn’t pay the bail. Going so far as to speculate that maybe the person wouldn’t have been in Texas to be arrested if her family was nicer is beyond the pale.
I bailed a friend a couple of weeks ago here in the Caribbean. I had to produce proof of citizenship and sign a form. I would have been liable for about $1,100 US dollars had my friend not shown up in court. I was responsible for making sure he went. The case was thrown out of court but if he had required further bail I would have had to sign another form and prove I had the cash - still not actually deposit anything. The arrest was for swerving to avoid a pothole described as ‘reckless driving’. It’s his second altercation with this particular officer and the police advised him if there’s one more incident he should get a restraining order against that officer.
A conversation about suicide prevention would include all of the possible reasons that a person might chose suicide. In Sandra Bland’s case, that would include the support, or lack of support, from her family. Key words being “possible reasons”.
While you are free to object to the inclusion of the actions of the Bland family, that doesn’t mean the actions of the Bland family can not be discussed.
Just to clarify, are you saying you don’t understand why I include the Bland family’s actions in a thread concerning Bland’s arrest and subsequent personal choice of suicide or do you simply object to someone discussing any possible reason for Bland’s that do not include the usual condemnation/lie that the sheriff who arrested Bland must have murdered her?
Eggs-actly. Nobody knew this would be such a fateful weekend for Ms Bland. From a legal standpoint, should everyone in jail be under observation 24/7? From a moral standpoint, should family members be expected to immediately stop what they’re doing and ride to the rescue every time a troubled family member repeatedly gets into trouble?
The Bland family knew Sandra Bland’s troubled mind better than the arresting officer or jail personal did.
I believe the Bland family is on record as not believing Sandra committed suicide, since she was starting a new job. So the family did not think she was suicidal, but apparently the jail administration should have know anyway.
Regards,
Shodan