But why does God need to be alerted to this situation? Why is the prayer even necessary? Surely he is aware of all of those near death who could benefit from cadaver donation. Are those of us with no access to intercession somehow second class in his eyes?
Answer from a Theological POV:
Perhaps the intended target of God’s lession wasn’t Job but instead everyone who would live after Job?
So Job’s family died, but what was gained was hope for billions and billions of future humans that patience and faith would be rewarded in due time. Maybe that’s the “bigger picture” that God was looking at.
Just a thougt, being a Diest myself, I don’t believe in any of the specific versions of God that mankind has come up with.
I think there is a disconnect here. The point of the prayer is not to influence the diety, but to relieve the petitioner of the burden. Much is made in the Christian bible of things like “Do not tempt the lord” and “thy will, not mine” type verses. Matters of life and death and the “time” in which they begin and end are not, theologically speaking, the province of mere mortals. If they find themselves burdened with these thoughts the right thing for them to do is take them to their heavenly father and leave them with him. The gift of prayer is relief from worrying about things beyond your control. Once the matters of the appointed time of life and death of the two soldiers were firmly in other hands the good Father Mulcahy then put his jeep in gear and went about his earthly business of doing what is humanly possible to relieve the pain and injury of war.
According to Christian doctrine, what I know of it at least, there is no one without access to intecessory prayer. I could not speculate as to what some diety would think of people who would or would not make such pleas, or their reasons.
Enjoy,
Steven
I think my Southern Baptist upbringing was finally undone when I read Catch-22 in high school. Whenever I would ask questions similar to the OP my teachers would go through several incarnations of progressively tortured rationalizations until the
n would finally say “God moves in mysterious ways.” Heller summed it up nicely in this passage:
“And don’t tell me God works in mysterious ways,” Yossarian continued on hurtling over her objection. "There’s nothing so mysterious about it. He’s not working at all. He’s playing. Or else he’s forgotten all about us. That’s the kind of God you people talk about–a country bumpkin, a brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped,evil, scatological mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did he ever create pain?
"Pain? Lieutenat Scheisskofps’s wife pounced upon the word victoriously. “Pain is a useful system. Pain is a warning to us of bodily dangers.”
“And who created the dangers?” Yossarian demanded. He laughed caustically. "Oh, He was really being charitable to us when he gave us pain. Why couldn’t He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of His celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person’s forehead? Any juke box manufacture worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn’t He?
“People would certainly look silly walking around with neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads.”
“They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupified with morphine, don’t they? What a colossal, immortal blunderer. When you consider the power and opportunity He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering. It’s obvious He never met a payroll. Why no self-respecting businessman would hire a bungler like Him even as a shipping clerk!”
All typos mine.
Copyright Joseph Heller.
Above post should look more like this. Hamsters ate my punctuation.
Damn still no punctuation. Don’t axe me.
What is this “your version of God” that you speak of? I’m an athiest, born and bred - never prayed to a God in my life. My question was genuine and meant to convey the ‘supposing God exists’ preface, sorry if I didn’t make that clear.
When God receives (?) the two prayers, what happens? Wouldn’t God only be able to help the Christian family, afterall, the other family is going to hell anyway?
First, not all Christians believe that nonChristians are going to hell.
Second, at least one story in the NT has Jesus helping a woman of another faith. She begs him to heal a relative. He says ‘Is it right to give the children’s supper to the dogs that beg under the table?’ She says ‘Even the begging dogs get to eat the crumbs that fall from the plates’ Jesus then goes and heals the relative.
Let me revise my first statement- I doubt rather strongly that the belief ‘Jesus is the only way to Heaven’ is held by a majority of Christians. However, those who do feel that way are more visible and vocal than those who don’t.
Sorry if I misunderstood you. Your writing “So how does God choose between two christian families, both praying for the survival of their children. One praying their child lives through the injuries caused by a car crash, another praying for a heart donor for their child (with compatibility with the first child)? If at least one family is christian, does this make God’s choice easier?” sort of led me to the conclusion that you were one.
This whole thread began more as a rant against God (you know, the one I don’t believe in) anyway. I did say that I don’t blame the father for asking for anything that wuld help his own child. It’s only natural. What gets me is that people cling to the belief that this particular god, having the power to prevent babies’ suffering in the first place, not only allows one baby to be injured in a car crash, but lets another suffer from heart disease…and that these people worship that god. Whether he exists or not, I don’t think he’s worthy of worship. Scorn, certainly, but not worship.
OP:
heh…when my old man had a clogged up heart he said he was ready to hike up to the Children’s ward and start standing on their oxygen tubes to prompt some donations. He was such a nut! He didn’t do it. Chose the multiple bypass and woke up face to face with The Big Guy. My point is, a lot of stuff crosses your mind in situations calling for an organ donation. Not all of it is rational, most of it revolves around ending one’s own suffering with little thought as to the process. Don’t be too hard on the daddy.
I’m more or less with you on your points 1 & 2. Not being a believer myself I might offer an opinion about #3. How about: You can’t possibly understand what God’s plans are–you’re too close to the action to be objective. You know what I’m driving at: eggs, omlettes, that sort of thing. Some might assert that God will recall the kid because of Dad’s selfish prayer, others will say it’s because Dad needs an example to illustrate his selfishness to him so he can work on fixing that problem. Who knows?
You’re kidding me? What other ways do Christians believe can get you to heaven? I would have assumed that the vast majority of Christians believe that if you are non-Christian (especially athiests) you are going to hell? With some time to consider your options maybe.
If not, then what happens to non-believers after death then?
The way I was taught was that a non-Christian who never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and who led a good and moral life would go to heaven. He wouldn’t be “as close to God/the light” as Christians in heaven, but he would be in heaven.
Not that I buy any of the above, just repeating what I heard.
Sounds like Japanese Buddhism - if you give lots of money to the priest at your temple, he’ll give you a special name for when you get to heaven, and you’ll be put in a good place. You’d think you can get away from social status in heaven, but apparently not!
The people in this thread who are arguing that suffering proves the non-existence of God seem to assume that if God exists/ed, 1)He is (or would be) the Judeo-Christian one; and 2) They are entitled to easy, pain-free lives.
AFAIAC, Life is supposed to be hard. Otherwise it is unfulfilling. The tradeoff is that being human makes you entitled to a fulfilling and free life.
Babies die because death is always with us. Every living thing is subject to death, and if it comes to a baby, it’s not because of anything. It just is. The death of a baby is enormously painful to the family that cared for it, but so would be the death of the father or the mother who has 20 or 30 years on the baby already.
So explain the point of prayer.
Well, it’s not “social status”, it’s “closeness to the light”
and it’s not achieved by “giving lots of money”, but by leading a moral life.
So how is paying the priest lots of money so you can get a special name for heaven, leading a moral life? The priest doesn’t ask any questions, takes the money and gives you the name. Poor people can’t afford a special heavenly name, does this mean they don’t get near the light even if they led a moral life?
You misunderstood what I said.
I said: “The way I was taught was that a non-Christian who never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and who led a good and moral life would go to heaven. He wouldn’t be “as close to God/the light” as Christians in heaven, but he would be in heaven.”
You said: “Sounds like Japanese Buddhism - if you give lots of money to the priest at your temple, he’ll give you a special name for when you get to heaven, and you’ll be put in a good place. You’d think you can get away from social status in heaven, but apparently not!”
Then I said: “Well, it’s not “social status”, it’s “closeness to the light”
and it’s not achieved by “giving lots of money”, but by leading a moral life.”
And by that I was trying to show that what I originally described does not sound like the Japanese Buddhism you describe.
Sorry, with you now - thought you were talking about Japanese Buddhism.
Still, there would be a Christian ranking in heaven - those who are near the light and those that aren’t. Wouldn’t that build up some resentment?
If you were christian and murdered someone but repented, would you still be closer to the light than the person who had never been exposed to christianity but who’d lead a moral life?
Also, what happens to people like me, who know that christianity is out there, lead a moral life, but reject it. Won’t I just go straight to hell?