JET believes, apparently, that gun control laws would be of no use because too many guns are out there to begin with. How can we judge the effectiveness of such laws if, and I now repeat myself, the NRA continues to fight even the most commonsense restrictions. Nobody needs the level of firepower that is currently available, not deer hunters and not those who believe they are protecting their homes and families.
We don’t have to go door to door and start confiscating guns. But there are guns that should be illegal to possess. We can make it harder for those who shouldn’t have access to guns, most specifically angst-ridden teens, to get them. It really isn’t that hard.
Gun control alone will not solve the problems.
I believe that people who have a supportive, unconditionally loving family can overcome almost anything, and sometimes even people who don’t have that support base thrive in spite of everything. But we do not live in a perfect world, and many people do not have those support systems available to them.
////Jeremy’s Evil Twin\\, I have heard one explanation for voices in one’s head put forth by Eric Berne, in his book Games People Play, about Transactional Analysis, and how our personalities are made up of several parts. One part is the internalized voices of our parents or other authority figures that we heard as children. Sometimes people who had a particularly distressing childhood, or other emotional trauma, have difficulty shutting those voices out. I hope that you will defend yourself against them and remember that every life is precious, and you deserve love and emotional health, as does every person.
I am glad that you are talking with us about this here. There have been a few threads recently started about bullies, advice to the next high school assassins, and learning to love yourself.
There are people who suffer from anxiety attacks who have started threads here, and I’m sure there are many other people with seemingly insurmountable problems that post right here at this message board.
Remember, you are not alone. Lots of people have problems to one extent or another. If you let anyone bully you into committing suicide or acts of violence against others, you are allowing them to control you and harm you further. Then they are still succeeding.
As the kinder voices in this thread have suggested, continue seeking the help of your psychotherapist, and talk to us here at this thread, or e-mail those of us whom you would like to talk with more privately.
I hope you will feel better and triumph over the terrible things that have happened to you, by not harming yourself or others, and by coming to value yourself as a worthwhile human being.
I hope you will respond again soon to this so we will not worry about you.
Good luck.
read this first. [Thanks to Melin of Fathom.]
I knew I was going to take flack for this. But part of me wanted to show how this was analagous to my justifications made in the OP.
You see…it’s all about RULES. Sometimes, there is only one satisfactory response to a specific situation, and in some cases…many, in fact…said response just happens to be against the rules.
I actually thought long and hard whether or not to post that reply, because I knew I’d get slapped. I tried to think of an alternate way to respond. But hard as I tried, I could not think of anything that was as direct and to-the-point as “G.F.Y.” It was the only response I could think of that would satisfactorily express what I felt. I had to choose between breaking the rules, or censoring myself. I chose to break the rules.
Now here’s now it relates to Andy’s case. He probably felt that shooting up his classmates was the ONLY reasonable solution that would satisfy his need for self-expression. He probably knew it was “against the rules”, too. Maybe the fact that it was “against the rules” factored into his decision. Plus the whole “getting attention” angle.
Anyway…my point is, sometimes you have to break the rules to get your point across. (Good thing I didn’t kill anyone, eh??) In any case, I promise to behave from now on…
…I think I need to step back from this thread for a bit because this is getting too intense. I woke up this morning, read over a few of my posts, and thought, “My God, I actually posted THAT?!?” Well, what’s done is done, but all this personal confession, as cathartic as it may be, is taxing to the body and mind. Hope you all understand.
I do want to address the “trolling” issue. At first I was irritated that a number of people are coming to the conclusion that I am merely jerking people off here, to the extent of trying to pinpoint exactly which previous troll I am. But now I just don’t care. Believe me or don’t, I know that I am sincere and that’s all that matters. I know this board has had serious problems with trolls so I think I understand the tendency for instant suspicion.
Actually, it would be logical for me to cancel my account, wait a while, and come back with another name and profile. Too many personal things have been revealed here that I think I have seriously and permanently colored the image that other people see in me. We all have secrets we need to hide and some of the things I admitted here are among them.
Which is exactly the reason why I am NOT going to do it. See you around on another forum.
Sexywriter:
**All I will say at this point is that I believe that point of view to be axiomatic.
Scylla: I shouldn’t have brought up the voices. Perhaps at another time, on another thread, I’ll be willing to discuss it. But not now, not here.
tsunamisurfer: Since I’m a paranoid schizophrenic (and kudos to you for nailing my exact diagnosis), am I to be ignored and marginalized? It’s this kind of attitude that drives people to kill, you know.
YWalker: It’s not about curing your own pain, it’s about sharing your pain with others. Like Bleeding Gums Murphy said to Lisa Simpson, “The blues isn’t about making you feel good, it’s about making other people feel worse!” I agree that finding a way to cure your own pain is the preferable solution, but if that is not possible or attainable, inflicting pain on others can be the “next best thing”, up to and including mass homicide. It’s certainly better than sitting alone in a room rubbing your aching feet while everyone else dances merrily outside. As for the legal ramifications, I’ll admit that is an issue that needs careful consideration, but deliberately breaking the rules can be seen as taking a moral stand, as expressed in my response to Gaudere (although deliberately insulting someone in an inappropriate forum is hardly worthy as an issue of moral righteousness…)
The “redistribution of misery” is not a zero-sum game. Perhaps misery is increased exponentially, as you say, by shooting up your school or bashing the feet of every bus passenger. However, misery is not easily quantifyable. Remember that there are other effects, such as the psychological boost it gives to other maligned people such as myself and Shadesofgreen6. Maybe witnessing such an act (either in person or on the news) causes somebody to re-examine his or her own life and perhaps take a course of action that benefits humanity as a whole. Who knows. (Of course, as I am an absolute nihilist, arguing that exponential increase of misery is an inherent part of my theory only serves to strengthen my beliefs.)
Guinastasia:
**I would find such a situation extremely ironic and tragic. However, in practice, most school shooters do try and avoid shooting their friends. Even Klebold & Harris warned a friend to stay away from Columbine the day the big massacre went down.
Better wrap it up for now.
J.E.T.
Ah, thanks for bringing that up, that supports my position of “nobody is innocent” better than anything I’ve come up with so far. What’s that old saying? “All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.” I’d take it a step further, and say that if people do nothing to stop evil, or in fact encourage it, then they are culpable for whatever ramifications befall them. And perhaps, they are MORE culpable. Bullying may be a programmed response to a rotten home life or other factors. Encouraging the bulliers, or refusing to stop it, is a far greater crime. Now that I think about it, I’m far more angry at the “innocent bystanders” who did nothing to help me than the people who inflicted the pain in the first place.
Actually, there is a sort of Darwinistic aspect to this. My working theory is that the social order of schoolkids is determined by selecting certain individuals to be scapegoats, to be harassed and bullied as a method of relieving the misery of the majority. It’s the reverse effect of my “redistribution of misery” theory, in which the overall misery index is reduced by a small fraction by increasing one person’s misery exponentially.
Some people from this exclusive group do overcome their torments and go on to become famous artists, writers, and actors. (I remember one class where the teacher was talking about how many famous people were picked on in school, and another kid cried out, “That means [Jeremy] is going to be famous!”) But not all are destined for that. Some of them just explode, spreading the misery back to where it came from.
This is actually a phenomenon I’ve thought about for a long time and I see the evolutionary advantage to it, in a social sense, and I’m all but convinced it’s necessary with regards to human culture. If we eliminate the bullies, perhaps we’ll eliminate the downtrodden misfits, but we may also be significantly impacting our artistic and theoristic heritage as well.
Now that’s food for thought!
J.E.T.
My point exactly. This is precisely the rationalization that bullies use in the first place. And yet somehow they are implicitly condoned (by allowing it to continue to happen), whereas reacting in a violent way a la Andy Williams, is abhorred. Once again, the double standard. What’s wrong with this picture??
J.E.T.
I have taken myself out of this thread but couldn’t resist this ludicrous statement by jonscribe. It is actually an antigun statement so I’ll comment.
Take the guns out of the equation. Why can’t anybody see the simplicity of this. And for those who will respond with the usual, tired Second Amendment bullshit, all I can say is that shootings such as this are the price that you and I will continue to pay as long as the NRA continues to fight even the most modest and commonsense restrictions. If it’s so damn important for you to be able to carry weapons that would shame a South American drug lord, then this is what you’re going to have to live with on a frequent basis. As my Republicans friends have been so fond of saying lately: Get over it. And learn to duck.
Take the guns out of the equation,he said.
We are seeing in print the words of a very sick person, namely JET. He does not value any human life except his own. Aren’t you glad that the weapon of choice is a gun.
To say the least, he has to consider, if only momertarily each shot.
Quote
And for those who will respond with the usual, tired Second Amendment bullshit, all I can say is that shootings such as this are the price that you and I will continue to pay as long as the NRA continues to fight even the most modest and commonsense restrictions.
Thank God we don’t have more people like JET being more creative in their murder methods. Without guns they would have to be more creative .JET has shown us all that he is a very intelligent individual. I’m glad he isn’t a science major.
What makes you think the “innocent bystanders” who did nothing were not acting out a “programmed response to a rotten home life or other factors”? It is, in fact, one occasional response to abuse; for example the beaten wife who stands by and lets her child be abused too, or even subtly condones it. Standing by while someone is abused is wrong, as is abuse, but I think your focussing on the sins of the “innocent bystanders” while excusing in part the direct actions of the bullies is nisguided. Those who do nothing may fear becoming a target too, or may be acting out responses due to their rotten home life. Evaluation of the motives, suffering and culpability of the abuser, abused and bystanders is not a simple thing.
No, not “ignored and marginalized.” Medicated and institutionalized.
Paranoid schizophrenics with severe persecutorial/homicidal features (and a range of severe personality disorders) are not to be toyed with, nor are their threats, however veiled, to be dismissed. (And your “threats” aren’t exactly veiled.) I would also surmise you aren’t real compliant about taking your meds and rather enjoy the power dynamic in this twisted little thread–especially when people open their hearts to reveal to you deep, dark secrets and vulnerabilities and–best of all–e-mail addresses.
My congratulations, JET. You are developing quite a cult following. A cyber stage ain’t exactly Broadway, but all in all, things are progressing rather nicely, aren’t they?
P.S. When your celebrity inevitably dies down, what will you do for an encore? (Gotta feed that narcissism.)
Sorry, I’m having trouble getting your point. You’ve been saying all along that bullies deserve to be killed or maimed for their crimes. But a victim of a bully who does EXACTLY THE SAME THING as a bully–take out his suffering on random people–should NOT be punished. Why is it OK for YOU to have a double standard, but not other people?
For that matter, your whole argument has been rife with hypocrisy. You’re mad at other people for their lack of empathy for you, yet you show little empathy for others. You hate bullies, but you think exactly like one. You refuse to believe that anybody suffered worse than you, but you get mad if others say the same. In other words, you’re pissed at humanity for not being better than you are.
Well, it sounds like you’re leaving the thread anyway. Hope you have a nice think.
It should be pointed out that school murders do take place in places with strict gun control. There was an incident in Japan where a student killed 2-3 classmates with either a knife or baseball bat (sorry for being fuzzy on the details, I saw it in a CNN story about school killings in general some years ago.)
Well, I could give my stock response that all human beings are essentially programmed, but that would be ducking the question.
So I’ll say that while ignoring or encouraging bullying may indeed be a programmed response for some individuals, it can’t possibly apply to all of them. When 95% of the school body hates your guts, it’s quite a stretch to assume that each and every one of them feels that way because they are being abused at home.
J.E.T.
**
Could you please point out exactly where I said that they should not be punished?
**
I’ll admit that empathy is not my strong point. And show me one person who is not at least partially hypocritical on an issue they feel strongly about. Not sure how to respond to the rest…aw heck, I’ll help your position by stating that I’m pissed off at humanity because they ARE better than I am!
Well, obviously this thread keeps drawing me back like a moth to flame. I figure I’ll be okay as long as I steer away from the personal details.
J.E.T.
We’re not getting toward the high-school-as-gestalt-organism kind of argument as typified by the Breakfast club, are we?
This would be the idea that the stratification and pressure of society force people into roles. The bullies are pressured into bullying, the pretty girls are pressured into being preppy and shallow, and the outcasts are pressured into withdrawal and introspection. At some point in time the society/high school organisms pressure exceed tolerances and one of the outcasts is pushed over the edge in one fashion or another i.e. shooting up the school, or committing suicide.
An accurate reckoning of the guilt would place little of the responsibility on the one actually holding the gun, indeed he is the sacrificial lamb. The entire school body/organism is responsible as each is a part and contributed to the pressures in their own way. The collateral damage in terms of innocent bystanders aren’t innocent for the same reason, they are actually the only ones who get what they deserve, as they represent vengeance against the organism that sacrificed the outcast.
The real victim is the shooter, who was forced to do it. The real villains are everyone else who pushed him over the edge to satisfy the societal organisms need for sensation.
This isn’t where were going with this, is it?
Ahem. I fully deplore the implication you are making there. It sounds like YOU may have persecutorial disorders, as well. (That’s not precisely an insult, right?)
Quite the contrary, this thread took on a much more confrontational/confessional tone than I intended, and has spun waaay out of control. I don’t understand why this happens on just about every board I post on. Maybe because I speak the truth and that really bothers people?
Probably talk about Napster.
J.E.T.
I’m finding this thread extremely disturbing and frightening.
JET-but how do we SOLVE and end bullying? Obviously, spreading the pain around isn’t going to solve it, it’s only going to keep it going in a cycle…
Awesome movie. I’ll have to watch it again tonight to remember the truths it exposed. I do remember that I and my high school friends spent long hours talking about the movie after it came out, and tried to identify which character represented each one of us. (I was a little miffed that they said I was the “basket case” as opposed to the “nerd”…)
**
Not sure if I would phrase it that way. More accurately, they are unfortunate victims of a defect in the system. My main objection is that the media & public at large tend to elevate them to some angelic, pristine status, whereas I feel their deaths are no more significant than an old man dying of cancer or a pregnant woman being crushed to death in an earthquake.
I’d say that’s the long and short of it, yeah.
J.E.T.
Anyone who agrees with this and gives in to it is allowing the bullies to win, and sacrificing her/his life so that all the self-righteous can say, "See, we were right, there was something fundamentally wrong with that boy/girl [sup]read “We were justified in picking on her/him.”[/sup]
Don’t allow yourself to become a puppet.
I’m not sure the problem is even solvable. Every solution I think of has severe drawbacks.
We could impose a zero-tolerance policy on teasing and bullying. But kids are smart, and can easily find loopholes in the system (kind of like the whole “I’m not touching you!” trick.) And what if someone falsely accuses another kid of teasing him?
We could eliminate communication between schoolkids entirely by putting gags on their mouths and chains on their wrists which remain in place except when they have to answer questions in class. This is actually the solution I came up with while in middle school, but I don’t have to point out the drawbacks to THAT idea.
We could hook up electronic sensors to each kid that administers an electrical shock whenever they strike out at or tease a helpless, weaker kid, thus solving the problem by negative conditioning. Has its merits, but the technology necessary simply isn’t there yet.
Well, I’m fresh out of ideas. How bout you?
J.E.T.
I think that’s EXACTLY where we’re going with this. And while it was the initial subject of the post, I think it misses the point.
The person whose point of view is being examined here is NOT a high school student. He is a mentally ill (by his own admission) adult. There is a world of maturity and self-control mechanisms that could have been grasped between then and now.
It’s true that what happens to you in high school can be a misery. I don’t want to sound like I’m brushing it off as unimportant when I say, “Most people move on.” At issue is someone who doesn’t have the capacity to do so. As I said earlier, we’re ALL subjected to the same thing. The difference between those who pick up a gun and those who do not is simply that action.
We’re not talking to a 14 year old kid here who is in the midst of this torment. Certainly, while there are pressures in the “outside world” (outside of high school that is) that can make us feel ostracized, we are no longer subjected to the caste system that we’re blaming this violence on. There are options besides wallowing.
I’d like to go way out on a limb and suggest that JET’s problems are not the result of his environment, in high school or since. They’re the result of his mental illness.
-L