So violence and shooting is the only way out?
Okay. I’m coming in late to this, but these are my 2 cents…
I go to a high school where these things could basically never happen - in Australia, to be exact. And not just because we have strict gun laws here, it’s because the pecking order that so many american schools have doesn’t really exist. There are the popular people, and the geeks, but both are perfectly happy where they are - because no-one really cares. I happen to be a cheerleader, but that doesn’t mean a thing for my popularity. Hell, I don’t even sit with the kids that you would call popular. But I don’t care, because I’m happy where I am.
So why is it that so many american schools have this problem? Is it because guns are so easily available? Or is it because everyone makes too much of a deal over the cliques? I haven’t met a single person who could say they’ve been scarred as badly by high school as some of the posters here seem to be, and some of them weren’t popular in the slightest. Yet they lived through it fine.
So, who’s fault is it then? The teachers? The schools? The students? I don’t know, but either way, I don’t think it’s going to change. The only way you’d be able to abolish bullying and tormenting is to get rid of the entire pecking order - and what are the chances of that happening?
But I seem to recall reading or hearing that some people who were victims of taunting and teasing developed symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, not unlike combat veterans.
BTW, were any of you so disrespected by your peers that your name became an insult? That it was comparable to being called “cocksucker” or “motherfucker?”
Welcome to my memories of high school.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Jeremy’s Evil Twin *
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** Ahem. I fully deplore the implication you are making there. It sounds like YOU may have persecutorial disorders, as well. (That’s not precisely an insult, right?) **
A pity that, besides deranged, you are also dense and unoriginal. Sharpen your replies before posting.
** Quite the contrary, this thread took on a much more confrontational/confessional tone than I intended, and has spun waaay out of control. I don’t understand why this happens on just about every board I post on. Maybe because I speak the truth and that really bothers people? **
Again, dense. The real issue is that you empathize with homicidal maniacs and give public vent to deranged retaliatory fantasies that would see innocent bystanders brought down in a hail of bullets.
P.S. Nice thread about the human heads as soccer balls. Eaten anyone lately?
JET:
I saw the Breakfast Club again, like six months ago. It didn’t wear well.
In fact, it was kind of embarassing and cheesy, like watching Billy Jack.
When the situations are cliched, and passe, what your left with is the characters.
Or, just character.
Billy Jack remains an interesting person while the rest of the movie (helping flower children who want to change the world by performing street theatre, but are taunted by evil townsfolk,) has become pretty ridiculous seen in today’s light.
The character of John Bender likewise remains compelling even seen today through a dimming haze of 80s preppiness and histrionic teenage angst that is The Breakfast Club.
Just because things seem one way, doesn’t mean that’s the way they are. Looking back through the rear-view mirror it’s often easy to be shocked about how wrong you were, and how easily misguided by your ingrained perceptions.
Take you for instance. Quite a few people seem as if they misinterpreted you, and dismissed you quickly because they misunderstood you, and figured you were trolling for attention. You seemd like it, and so they figured that’s what you were.
Likewise, a high school only seems like a single hive organism controlling its individual members by forcing them into roles.
It doesn’t really. In order for those pressures to be real, you have to buy into and believe in the whole process, just like you have to buy into 60’s or 80’s culture to appreciate the Breakfast Club, or Billy Jack, just like you have to buy into the bullshit in order to let a cult take over your life.
The process can be deceptive, and sly like a con man, and you can get sucked into a false paradigm.
But, the operative thing here is that at some point you also have to choose tp fulfil the role your being asked to play.
More importantly, before you can be asked to play that role, you have to audition for it. Some part of you must be attracted or compelled to it, or you wouldn’t be there. You’d be in some other role.
So, it chooses you, but you also choose it.
Would you agree?
While we all know that nature is cruel and tends to promote the survival of the fittest, we no longer lurk in caves nor have to fight for food, breeding and survival. We have developed a brain and an ever evolving system of laws as well as education to counteract that. In the past, we killed defective children so that the strong could survive. We allowed our severely injured to die so that the tribe could keep moving, killed the weakest in times of famine, disposed of the elderly to preserve needed resources in hard times.
Later, we killed the weakest just because we could and wanted what they had.
Well, times have changed a bit. Look at Professor Hawking. A couple of hundred years ago, he never would have been allowed to survive to reach puberty. Look at the schools for Downs Syndrome children, for the retarded, the medical advances to correct deformities, to prolong life and so on. Plus the laws protecting everyone, no matter how weak they are.
We have all forms of children’s rights and child protective laws, admittedly somewhat flawed, but they’re a start. An adult who lays hands on a child goes to jail but, a kid who beats the living snot out of another kid gets status, a pat on the back by Dad, an approving look by Coach, and admiring glances from girls.
You know, some kids just cannot fight back physically. Nature generated a system of intimidating signals for combatants to use. You see them a lot in schools; the ‘anger face,’ the posturing, the deepening of the voice with increasing loudness, the rapid gesturing and so on. All designed to intimidate the opponent.
On some kids, it works all to well.
I recall the football jocks in high school, big, loud, strong and, at that time, smart. (Stupid was not allowed in football.) Over half liked ‘showing off’ for the admiring crowds of horny girls so they usually located the kids least likely to fight back. There are more devious ways of intimidation among kids than you might think, besides beating them up. Nasty little ways of spot humiliation, soft statements made in passing, slight shoves, pokes, pinches, spitballs, hinted innuendo concerning the targets sexuality, disgusted expressions as if the kid isn’t worth being beaten up, and more. Like the friendly offering of candy or gum, then letting the kid know after he eats it that it was first spit on, shoved up ones nose, pissed on or rolled in the crotch.
So, we’ve smarter kids in a confusing society, faced with evolving roles, hyper technology and we jam them into crowded schools where hormonal thugs get to practice future intimidation skills on the shy, the weak, the quiet and the noncombatants.
We’ve got brains. Sure, aggressive behavior is necessary, but do we need to warp our young? Yes, we need belligerent and/or aggressive people because in times of war, they’ll have to fight but we don’t need them beating the crap out of our own kids.
Besides, in overly aggressive kids, researchers have discovered the seeds of future criminals. If there are various reasons for them becoming bullies, then those need to be looked into, but I find no reason to let someone with a terrible home life, who has become an excellent fighter, repeatedly beat the crap out of that 98 pound, bookish, non-athletic, homely looking kid who can’t defend himself.
One should not see going to school as something terrible or so fearful that they develop mental problems or have to walk in fear while they are in the halls of learning.
Jeremy’s Evil Twin wrote:
Suddenly, I’m reminded of that old “Sheik Condoms” commercial from 5 or 6 years ago, where this overacting teenage boy comes on screen and screams, “Condoms, man! It’s repression, man! Just another TOOL … of the ESTABLISHMENT … just to BRING US DOWN!!”
Jeremy’s Evil Twin, I’m glad you’re discussing the thread with your psychiatrist. The faceless nature of internet message boards makes them, for some people, easier to talk to than a real live therapist. I hope the thread acts as a springboard for some serious working through. (Personally, I think Scylla’s comments would be especially valuable.) I’m glad that you feel there’s a possibility of a light at the end of the tunnel. You’ve got a damn long way to go, but good on you for the progress. I wish you all the best.
Scylla:
You’ve said many things that I would have wanted to say if I had been reading the thread from the beginning, but I don’t believe that I would have been as clear and eloquent as you have been. Way to go.
Now, this is interesting! I’d never expected this thread to last this long! There’s some pretty good stuff in here without the usual run of wisecracks and arguements.
Hey, you little [expletive deleted], don’t play the mental illness card with me. Remember that many great philosophers were crazy as a loon, from Jesus Christ to Nietzsche.
I’ll give that self-control is an issue…but “maturity” is a buzzword created by self-important people to marginalize those who are more impulsive and honest in their thoughts and actions.
I’d say it’s the other way around. But what the hell do I know? I’m just crazy. LA LA LA LA LA.
J.E.T.
Go ahead, call me a bitch. It might bother the mods, but it doesn’t make a difference to me.
I agree. In fact, I’d stretch that comment to say that many great PEOPLE, not just philosophers, are completely off their rockers. I also believe that in some cases, having a world view that doesn’t jibe with everyone ELSE’S version of reality (i.e., being completely insane) is exactly what makes those people brilliant. Creativity is unlimited for someone with no “normal” walls.
And I think this was part of my point. What makes YOU different from those brilliant philosophers? Because I sense you’re quite intelligent, I suspect the only difference is in what you harness your “difficulties” for and how you use them.
In part, I meant to say that a 14-year-old’s capacity for harnessing his insanity to do something useful or brilliant is more limited than yours.
I’ll give you that. I didn’t intend to use condescending language, and for that I apologize. I was only trying to make a distinction between the capacity of a high school student and YOUR capacity, which you must admit, should be worlds apart.
I’d say it’s the other way around. But what the hell do I know? I’m just crazy. LA LA LA LA LA.
J.E.T. **
[/QUOTE]
You’re suggesting that your environment caused your illness? I’ll give you that…I’m potentially in the same boat. But in the end, it doesn’t matter WHAT caused it. You’ve been dealt a shitty hand. So was Nietzsche. I rather like what he chose to do with his cards. Your capacity for understanding the seriously disturbed could be put to great use.
-L
If I’m dense, then your head must be filled with granite.
Which is because the mass media manipulates us to believe the reverse – that the victims should be canonized, while the shooter ought to rot in hell. I’m given to empathize more with the shooter because 1) I understand who he is and why he did what he did, 2) I believe he was fully justified in his actions, and 3) He is still alive and subject to a long life of ultimate pain and misery (to say the least!) The victims, on the other hand, are free of pain, and I envy them.
That’s basically the long and short of it. Death is a GOOD THING, and I cheer when it happens, whether it’s a kid going down in a hail of bullets from a stranger, or Dale Earnhardt crashing into a wall at 180mph. Lucky bastards.
Haven’t been to “McBabies” in a while. 
(Which gives me the idea for a new GQ…)
J.E.T.
**
“Bitch” wasn’t the word I was thinking of. But I’m on thin ice with the mods anyway.
**
Many articles have been written on the link between creativity and insanity. I do believe there is a direct correlation. Look at Stephen King, for example. Could those ideas possibly come from a NORMAL brain??? Even King admits he’s “warped”. Luckily, he managed to harness his insanity and make millions of dollars out of it.
**
I dunno, that Columbine thing was pretty damn brilliant, I never would have thought of it back in the day. As to your first paragraph, the only difference that immediately comes to mind is that nobody’s written a book about me yet.
Thank you. I agree competely.
J.E.T.
I don’t think they were crazy, nor do I think you are crazy. (See my first post to this thread; if you are crazy because of voices, then so are a lot of people, myself included.)
I agree with this also. Maturity seems to me to be used as the definition of someone who accepts the status quo and fits neatly into society. Anyone who rails against fate or thinks differently may be labeled as immature.
I believe that you have been a victim of terrorism, but the kind that is not noticeable because it is, in my opinion, by an unorganized system of bullies and petty tyrants whom society ignores or looks the other way when they are perpetrating their violence and mind games.
This would make a great topic for another GD thread, as I believe we have short-circuited our evolutionary progression by allowing “defectives” and “unwanted” people to survive (i.e. that whole abortion issue.) Same goes for the elimination of disease, poverty, etc.
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And we still do. Not sure if that’s germane to the topic at hand, though.
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Ah yes, that cursed Dr. Hawking. He shoots a hole right into the middle of my whole eugenics theory. That is, I believe that “defective” people (such as myself) should be put to death for the greater good of society as a whole. But then Dr. Hawking comes along and blows that theory to bits. Oh well, I’m still working on it…
I do wonder sometimes about the fact that in just about any other country (with the exception of Western Europe) I would be unable to survive, and therefore dead by now. I’m not convinced that that’s a good thing.
I completely agree with that, as well as the rest of your post. The question I present is whether it’s even possible to change the system.
J.E.T.
**
Is Billy Jack a movie? I’ve never seen (or even heard of) it. I’ll agree that TBC doesn’t have the same impact as it used to, being distanced from that whole situation and all.
You’ll get no argument from me there.
**
I’ll give that I do have the “trolling mentality”, which is probably what the other posters picked up on. On the other hand, they may have been so shocked by the truth of my statements that it triggered a defensive reaction of total denial. Lots of times, I’ve spoken my thoughts to people, who have quickly reacted by saying, “Oh you don’t really mean that.”
I’ve read this part several times and I’m not exactly sure what it is you are getting at. Are you suggesting that we cannot be part of the system unless we CHOOSE to be part of the system? I’d disagree with that on its face. Just ask any black slave from last century if they “chose” to be a slave.
I’d posit that we are all slaves to the system, and to rise above it, one must (to use your words) “audition for the role”. It’s like the whole Game thing. To Play the Game, you must make a conscious decision to Play. Before you do that, you’re just a slave. The act of self-actualization is the antithesis to being part of the system. You may then choose to remain in the system, or you may choose to rise above it. In either case, you are no longer a slave.
Or…maybe you’re suggesting that “choosing not to decide is still a choice” (like the Rush song.) In other words, the high school jock has “chosen” to be a high school jock because he simply did not choose to resist the inclination towards being a high school jock. I can see where you’re coming from with this, but I’m not sure if I agree with it, as it assumes that the person in question has the self-awareness necessary to make a change if he or she wanted to.
What I mean is, looking at a person from the outside, it’s impossible to say whether he is who he is because he’s accepted it, or whether he’s just an automaton. Sometimes, even looking at myself, it’s impossible to know which is true. See what I’m getting at?
Both theories have merit, but put together, they create sort of a paradox. You have the people on top, who have risen above the system via self-actualization and The Game. You have the people on the bottom, who are slaves and unaware of it. Then you have the people in the middle, who are aware of being slaves but have chosen to do nothing about it. Are they still slaves, or have they risen above the system by choosing to be remain slaves? Or has the system defeated them by way of their choice to remain slaves? Yikes, this one makes my head ache just thinking about it.
But the slaves at the bottom are still slaves. No choice is involved there.
J.E.T.
A professor told me that insanity was defined as the relationship between an individual’s beliefs and those of the status quo. For example, if I had smallpox in the 17th century, and went around telling people that my illness was being caused by millions of tiny little bugs creeping through my body, they’d tie me up in a straightjacket. In today’s society, one’s perception of sanity can be relative to whichever social group they are a part of. We Western people look at Islamic terrorism and think they are insane – yet, if you were part of an Islamic terrorist cult, you would think your ideas were pretty darned reasonable and that the rest of the world is insane. We certainly don’t see Islamic terrorists arguing with a duck or rubbing shit all over themselves.
With specific regard to censuring voices, I’m not sure if I’d agree with you that this is something every person must deal with, as I’ve never been inside anybody else’s brain. But then, what do I know?
Exactly.
Brilliant analogy! From reading the posts of those who have also suffered at the hands of merciless high school tormentors, they appear to exhibit the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. Perhaps the solution is prosecuting school bullies under anti-terrorism laws? It’s something to think about, at least.
J.E.T.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Jeremy’s Evil Twin *
**
Which is because the mass media manipulates us to believe the reverse – that the victims should be canonized, while the shooter ought to rot in hell. I’m given to empathize more with the shooter . . . he was fully justified in his actions . . . the victims, on the other hand, are free of pain, and I envy them.
That’s basically the long and short of it. Death is a GOOD THING, and I cheer when it happens, whether it’s a kid going down in a hail of bullets from a stranger, or Dale Earnhardt crashing into a wall at 180mph. Lucky bastards.
Good God, I’m continuing to argue with a psychotic madman who glorifies murder of innocent victims.
By the way SW, JET may be reasonably intelligent and mildly amusing in a apocalyptic, nihilistic way, but brilliant he ain’t. Voltaire, Newton, Mill, Einstein–and Jeremy’s Evil Twin??? (Whoops, forgot his co-madman–Jesus.)
By the way, JET–have you stopped chuckling over the tortured death of Jesus?
Not that this is headed for the National Archives or a PBS documentary, but here is what I was trying to say:
Good God, I’m continuing to argue with a psychotic madman who glorifies murder of innocent victims.
By the way SW, JET may be reasonably intelligent and mildly amusing in a apocalyptic, nihilistic way, but brilliant he ain’t. Voltaire, Newton, Mill, Einstein–and Jeremy’s Evil Twin??? (Whoops, forgot his co-madman–Jesus.)
By the way, JET–have you stopped chuckling over the tortured death of Jesus?
- WHY MUST I CONNECT ALL THE DOTS??? *
All right, JET. You’re deranged, borderline homicidal, a real nut case who wants to do everyone a favor and kill, kill, kill.
Beautiful, baby, so why not put pen to paper and write a screenplay? A good friend of mine is a film producer and he’s always telling me how impossible it is to find really fresh screenplays. Why not tap your God-given nuttiness and write something, um, worthy of the big screen?
The world is waiting to see some twisted version of the Colorado high school debacle–something that explores the inner world of the victim turned homicidal madman. You mentioned Stephen King. The guy’s getting rather long of tooth and his best days are long past. I say: Why not pass the mantle on to a butcher wannabe like you? You can channel your nihilistic, cutthroat instincts into a box office blockbuster. Hey, what could be more American?
You’ll need to strike while the iron’s hot. Come up with something fresh, disturbing, insightful, brilliant. Your protagonist (whatever) needs to be really tormented and twisted. He also needs to network with similarly minded nuts who think big–if you know what I mean. A bunch of two-bit copycats with pedestrain homicidal fansasies simply won’t do.
Hollywood is so twisted, you might just be able to pull it off. Lord knows you have the credentials. (If a screenplay is too speculative, think book.)
Your new talent agent,
tsunamisurfer