tsunami:
As far as I can see, JET is neither stupid, nor psychotic, nor are his posts irrational.
If you think they are, that tells me you haven’t read them carefully (and you do need to read them carefully.)
Please either do so, and join the discussion, or go start a pit thread.
I say this without insult but look at what you’re writing. As far as a contest between who’s more rational and civil in this thread, I don’t think you win.
It’s actually pretty scary when you get down to statistics.
A friend of mine attended a college class about criminal behavior and recommended to me one of the books the class used, “Serial Killers” by Joel Norris, published in 1988.
Although this information applies only to serial killers, they are the epitome of sociopathic behavior.
Quote from book:
“In 1983 alone, according to the FBI, approximately 5,000 Americans of both sexes and all ages - 15 people a day and fully 25% of all murder victims - were struck down by murderers who did not know them and killed them for the sheer “high” of the experience.”
also:
“Since 1960 not only have the number of individual serial killers increased but so have the number of victims per killer and the level of savagery of the individual crimes themselves. The FBI has estimated that there are at least 500 serial killers currently at large and unidentified in this country. Their toll on the rest of society is enormous.
However, as if this statistic were not bad enough, consider the fact that the epidemic of serial murderers is spreading.”
and finally:
“In the last 20 years the United States, with only 5% of the world’s population, has produced 75% of the world’s serial murderers. Of the 160 serial killers who have been captured or singled out by law enforement authorities over this period, at least 120 were found in the United States.”
Keep in mind that this book is now about 13 years old and most of the information used was becoming dated even then. In the last 15 years, all of these statistics have increased exponentially.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soulmurk *
**
It’s actually pretty scary when you get down to statistics.
“In 1983 alone, according to the FBI, approximately 5,000 Americans of both sexes and all ages - 15 people a day and fully 25% of all murder victims - were struck down by murderers who did not know them and killed them for the sheer “high” of the experience.”**
I don’t want to argue with you. Perhaps these statistics are very accurate. But I would be suspicious of them if I were you. I will try to find some real cites to back this up, but from MY education,an overwhelming majority of murder victims are killed by someone they know. As in, more than 75% as the author quotes in the work cited above.
**
[quote]
“In the last 20 years the United States, with only 5% of the world’s population, has produced 75% of the world’s serial murderers. Of the 160 serial killers who have been captured or singled out by law enforement authorities over this period, at least 120 were found in the United States.” **
[quote]
Could that just mean we’re better at identifying and stopping them? Does it necessarily mean we have more? See what I mean about these statistics?
**
Then why did I just here “nightly news” sound bites that the FBI stats showed our murder and other violent crime rates at a 50 year low?
I’m off to look up some information…
-L
JET, you seem rather familiar. Is your surname “Price”?
I am assuming SW is me. I don’t read in my posts that I made a judgment on Jeremy’s Evil Twin’s intelligence. I didn’t think that was the issue here.
I also don’t understand where this comes from.
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Surely the statistics are outdated, but finding newer statistics that may or may not refute 13 year old numbers isn’t the point.
What I was trying to demonstrate was that the percentage of people that not only want to kill someone, but that actually go through with the deed, is far greater than one may think.
Whether it the crime is perpetrated by an aquaintance or a stranger is irrelevant, the fact remains that people are being murdered.
In a world that has a continuous increase in population, and all of the social factors that comes along with that growth, the number of killings is only increasing. Whether or not the ratio of killings to population growth is proportionate, I do not know. Regardless, the psycho/sociopathic tendencies of serial and mass murderers is more common than you might think.
Once it is realized that it is such a problem, the question to be answered is, how do we stop it?
Society has blamed everything from music to video games to abuse and neglect as a child, and though all of these things surely lend to the mindset and pathology of the killer, would banning these things and monitoring families change anything?
I’m of the opinion that environmental factors contribute strongly to these situations. Acid rain and Bovine Growth Hormones and pesticides in our food and air, etc.
It’s natural selection at work. The weaker of the species are succumbing to the changes (unnatural though they are) rather than adapting.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soulmurk *
What I was trying to demonstrate was that the percentage of people that not only want to kill someone, but that actually go through with the deed, is far greater than one may think.
It may be true that it’s “far greater than one may think,” but if you go here (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/99cius.htm) and look at the FBI statistics for the chances of lifetime murder victimization from 1997, you will find a 30 year LOW. Thus indicating that in spite of the continual population increase, murder rates are continuing to decline. In addition, if you look at the rates since this report in 1997, they have dropped by bout 2% per year.
[QUOTE]
Whether it the crime is perpetrated by an aquaintance or a stranger is irrelevant, the fact remains that people are being murdered.
It’s not irrelevant to the conversation at all. Because we’re discussing psychopathology, defined as someone with a total disregard for human life and a complete lack of remorse. Please see JET’s posts for an example. We’re NOT discussing the guy who finally kills his wife after 20 years of abusing her. My question was about the uniqueness of the former.
[QUOTE]
**In a world that has a continuous increase in population, and all of the social factors that comes along with that growth, the number of killings is only increasing. **
Wrong. Please see cite above.
[QUOTE]
Regardless, the psycho/sociopathic tendencies of serial and mass murderers is more common than you might think.
That may be true, but my question was about exactly how common that is. And now I have a question about how we determine this. I haven’t seen any indication that psychopathology is becoming more OR less common from the information presented.
-L
I have read this entire thread and I have a few reactions:
Idle wonderment of what could possibly EVER make a person with so many issues feel happy or complete;
Mild suprise that a person of apparent intelligence so readily blames others for his problems and not himself – though accepting the role of perma-victim is of course simpler and takes much less courage;
Mild irritation that he or anyone would be so presumptuous as to assume that those of us who refuse to condone, admire, or applaud violence either must not understand his position or must not have suffered in school;
Distaste of such magnitude that I feel I should follow-up the reading of this thread by going to take a bath;
Profound gratitude that this individual doesn’t live anywhere near me; and
Overwhelming shock that the OP’er was never elected prom king. :rolleyes:
JEREMY – I find your posts – which are so obviously calculated to outrage – to be deserving of contempt, not sympathy. Your condoning of murder; your subsequent devaluation of human life; and your transparent narcissim (which is not lessened by the fact that you are apparently deeply unhappy) do not indicate to me that your views, at least in this instance, are worthy of any respect whatsoever.
It is immature to wish to spread misery around by depriving innocent others of their happiness, much less their lives, rather than owning the misery as your own and combatting it. It is immature to believe that your problems are created in the main by people other than yourself, or that anyone but you has the power to make you happy. It is immature to dream of lashing out in a way that will remove yourself or your target from the battle, as to do so is manifestly nothing but the cowardice of a hit-and-run. It is immature to fail to get over miserable things that happened years ago, and to blame the “scars” of past experiences for current failings when, again, the person to credit or blame for what you are – if you are an adult – is YOU. Some people are alarmed by what you’ve said. Some are angered. Some are touched. I am none of the above. If you have legitimate mental health issues, I urge you to get help. If you don’t have such issues but are instead merely the arrested-development navel-gazer you appear to be, then do yourself and the rest of the world a favor and grow the fuck up.
The original question was, “do you really think psychopathy is THAT common?”
My quotation of said book was to show that it is more common than most people realize.
The FBI link talks about murder in general, and that includes murders of lust and opportunity and gangs, which do not equate to psychopathic killings.
I looked around but could find no sites that gave any statistical information about whether true psycho/sociopathological murder was on the rise or not.
Actually, I always found that laughing was a much better way of dealing with bullying.
For example, when two thugs cornered me in the bathroom in High School and informed me they were going to give me a ‘swirlie’ (which basically involves putting someone’s head in the toilet and flushing it repeatedly), I told them I was honestly impressed and asked them where they had come up with this brilliant, if novel, use of a toilet. As they sat there looking confused (I think you’ll find that most bullies are rather dim), I simply walked out. For the rest of my tenure in High School, they simply gave me confused looks every time they saw me.
My favorite episode, though, was when a particularly nasty bully (he took lots of taikwondo and was apparently a martial arts freak) started razzing my about drying my crotch after taking a shower in gym class. I looked him straight in the eye and told him I was attempting to stop fungal growth there and proceeded to graphically detail what this stuff would do to the genitals. Long story short, after the second time I advised him to thoroughly dry himself off, he was sawing away so vigorously at his crotch with a towel that I thought he was going to geld himself. I still crack up when I think about that…
Anyway, as far as not connecting with people, don’t worry about it Crazy Guy. I don’t either (I spend most of my time in a nice place called ‘Wabbit-Land’) and I still find humanity to be pretty damn amusing. I mean, even bullies are hilarious if you interact with them in the right way.
Just a thought, but try using your brain rather than letting raw emotion rule your responses and you’ll be much better off.
Scylla, you are an abject idiot, but that’s another topic.
The very notion that you find any degree of civility or rationality in the musings of a paranoid schizophrenic with persecutorial themes and homicidal fantasies who “cheers” the gunning down of innocent people is breathtaking. Yes, we all empathize his purportedly tortured upbringing and life. But when you cross the line and advocate mass murder of innocent (or not so innocent) people that’s deranged and worthy of censure. You would have me conform to the nicities of parliamentary debate when someone enthusiastically applauds murder?
My suggestions to JET to channel his homicidal impulses into something other than mass murder seems appropriate.
He can write well enough, is reasonably articulate, and certainly knows this stuff better than others.
As for the Jesus reference, SW, read JET’s earlier responses. He said Jesus was a madman and that death is a good thing and he cheers when innocent people are killed.
Care for more evidence of a “rational” and “civil” discourse?
Jodi-I think you nailed him right there.
Wabbit-you’re right. Unfortunately, that’s how Jim Carrey escaped getting beaten up, by making people laugh, so maybe we don’t want to encourage it too much. But yeah, laughing it off helps.
For what it’s worth, I eventually started tuning out the bullying. By 10th grade, I was much better off. It just didn’t faze me anymore, because I realized that it wasn’t going to matter two years from now, and it really wasn’t so bad in the long run, and I guess I just grew more confident.
That, and I basically escaped into books and later became known as “That quiet chick who hangs out in the library and plays with her hair.” Not too bad, considering before it was “That geek who has head lice and sleeps with dead people.”
You do realize, JET, that the bullies have scored their ultimate success-they succeeded in destroying you, and you lost, big time. ONly by realizing that it is THEM, not YOU, and realizing that they have problems, do you succeed.
Frankly, pal, you lost. Big time.
Bullies 1, JET 0.
tsunamisurfer
Jeremy’s Evil Twin
[Moderator Hat ON]
Tsunamisurfer, the next post I see by you that directly calls another poster stupid or contains other insults will be edited or deleted at my whim, and I’m feeling unusually whimsical right now. If you cannot post civilly in this thread, stay out of it. JET, I don’t care what anyone says to you, you will not repond with a direct insult. If you feel you have been insulted, email David and me and we will look into it. I have now warned you three times in this thread alone; I cut you a certain amount of slack because you are a newbie, but your slack is now officially all used up. If you value your posting privileges here, do not break the rules again in this thread…and I suggest you err exceedingly on the side of caution.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
tsunami:
As for the insult:
::sniff:: Ok, I’m an idiot. Run along now.
As for my intitial post, and his reply, you’ll notice he actually proceeded to qualify and extrapolate on his reasoning when asked, and it’s not quite the same, as it seemed at first (and I do agree that he did this deliberately to shock, but there’s a lot of precedent for using that particular device in Literature as well as several famous speeches by historical personages. I don’t think it’s the best choice for an opener, but that’s not my business.)
I think he’s ultimately wrong in his assertion, but I also think he’s an interesting debater. It’s pretty rare to find somebody who’s willing to admit flaws in their arguments and motives, and JETs done that.
Though I dislike his arguments themselves, he’s done nothing in the way he’s gone about arguing them to deserve abuse, IMO. Quite the contrary actually.
J.E.T.:
I don’t think your slave anaolgy works. At any time one can decide not to be a slave by “not playing the game.”
For a real slave this is not possible. Trying to escape entails death, torture, or punishment if failure results.
For your slaves, it just a matter of realize the truth and it will set you free.
For example, I knew a guy who was a real motorhead type. Badass, shop class, smoked pot, wise-ass, black leather jacket.
One day for no reason I was able to determine he just showed up with a nerdy green sweater, and started to apply himself.
I can think of several examples of people switching or changing roles in High School without serious consequance. A slave can’t do that.
Darn! This thread just takes right off and moves fast!!
OK. Someone asked if we could change the current system. Another person posted an example of the Australian School system. I’ve read and seen documentaries concerning the flaws in the English Old School system and know many a Catholic Parochial School kid who can tell tales as well as several private school graduates.
Pecking orders. They seem to start once the students go from being in one class grouping of 25 or 30 for the first 6 grades (5 now I think) to the ‘junior high’ or multiple class, multiple teacher, assorted, different classmates design.
It seems curious that many kids do well from first through 5th, then suddenly nose dive when they enter the cattle pen of 6th through 12th.
Other posts have commented on the horrors of the first Physical Education class with ‘dressing out’ and showering, having to lock up valuables and intimidation in the showers. Coaches went from being nice guys in the elementary school levels to stern martinets in the higher grades, seeming to favor the jocks, who, naturally, were the more aggressive kids.
One dichotomy I noticed was, as a kid, I believed what adults told me, as did others. So, in sports, we were taught that it is not whether you win or loose, but how you play the game and how to be good sports. When we entered Junior High, that whole thing was junked. It is not whether you win or loose, but how you win! If you get beaten, shaking the other teams hands is taboo and better if you smack one in the chops. Coach informs you that losers are ‘pussies’ and winners are champs! Then, if you enter the school teams, you learn how to cheat.
In football, you learn how to disable the other player. In hockey, if you draw blood and knock out teeth, you’re lionized.
Our entire school system needs to be revamped. For one thing, I find it indescribably astonishing that schools are running out of funds, teachers have to use their own money to buy supplies for the kids, books are frequently out of date and teachers underpaid! These kids are the future generations! Screw them over now, and we’ll all pay for it later.
Not only do the schools need to be revamped, but so do the Children’s rights laws, which have everyone walking around scared, lawsuits against schools need to be thrown out of court unless they are for something real serious and not because some punk felt taking a drug test to be on the Basketball Team was against his civil rights. Teachers need to be more highly paid and backed up against the insanely litigious parents we seem to have developed, increased security is needed until we get past this dangerous phase and a relaxed but enforced dress code needs to be applied.
The kids need to know that the Teachers have authority. They also need to know that they are safe and if picked on, it is not a wussy thing to have a teacher step in and stop the little buggers who are doing it.
I talked to the 9 year old daughter of my neighbor the other day, sweet kid, and she was a bit miffed because some kid was doing something against the rules that was annoying another kid. I told her to report his butt. She said she couldn’t because the teachers have told the kids not to be ‘tattle tales’.!!!
Well, I think I’ve got a good idea why so much bullying goes unreported in higher grades!
The dichotomy is, the kids are taught to follow rules and to avoid doing ‘bad’ things and should report criminal activities, but if they catch little JoeBob stealing Alyssia’s lunch, they aren’t allowed to tell the teacher. So, be a good citizen and help stop crime, but don’t be a squealer because no one likes tattle tales.
Anyone besides me see something wrong here?
Be a good sportsman, but spike that SOB when you slide in, start a rumble on the field and try to injure the pitcher, grab the quarterback by his face guard and twist his helmet around, and start a bloody war in hockey. After the game, don’t pal around with any of the other team players, but if you want to thump a few, that’s fine.
Then, coaches who just know that those kids not doing well in PE are being harassed and ridiculed by the better players, should step in, find out what’s up and put a stop to it. Not everyone is a great athlete.
Starting there ought to make a difference.
When I was in school, our football team used to steal the symbol of the next city’s team and hide it. They would do the same to us. Big, fun searches and elaborate security precautions were set up. Very few people got hurt or in fights.
After I graduated, it became serious. Stealing the symbols became a prosecution offense! Lawyers got involved! Fights broke out and it had to be stopped! Can you believe that?
Then, fights at football games got so violent that seasons were almost canceled! Coaches were encouraging more violence among players and big, massive athletes were desired even if they had trouble counting to 6! Grades were ‘adjusted’ to keep them on the teams. Shortly after, there came the ‘pass those stupid students’ rule instead of holding them back because in order to justify federal funds, the State needed to get graduation figures up.
Well, that helped a whole lot.
You know, you cannot sue the federal government unless the government gives you permission to do so. Perhaps they need to include schools in that rule, and then create a federal board of education to over see State educational systems.
I remember a teacher had a rule on “tattling”: for serious stuff, only. Like, if you say so and so playing with his calculator instead of doing his work, don’t bother the teacher with something like that-it’s not serious. However, if someone’s writing on the walls, or hitting someone, or stealing, something major, then come up and quietly report it. Don’t go running up and saying, “Johnny didn’t do his homework!”
Professor Hawking was healthy until well after he became an adult.
you americans need gun control!
I also know many americans who think that lack of gun control is simply absurd.
to illustrate: a five year old can shoot a rifle but can’t drink until he’s 21, even though he can get access to alcohol much earlier. The upshot is that you’d prefer a country full of drunkards with guns rather than drunkards too pissed to harm anyone yet alone with a gun.
it’s crazy.
people all too easily cite ‘liberty’ as a reason to support gun ownership but control of guns, not prohibition of them, will keep them from those who should never have them. There’s a difference between people who should be at liberty to protect themselves and those who should be protected by others.
let’s start with the kids. maybe if that happened, these people might not have had to shoot people to prove some dumb point.
I tried to read this whole thread, but only got to page three. If I cover anything brought up past page two, my apologies in advance.
J.E.T.: first of all, let me say that, if you are truly speaking from the heart about your feelings, I applaud you for speaking out. The relative anonymity of the internet isn’t the worse forum for this.
If you’re trolling for sympathy, then sweetie, look between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.
Do me a favor, pal, and don’t do me any favors.
I immediately started to benefit from life (enjoy my life more) when I finally stood up to the thugs, in my freshman year in HS. I took lumps. Plenty of 'em. But so did they. And they liked it less than I did. You want to be free of the pain bullies cause you? Develop a tolerance for some physical pain and stand up to them. If the odds are against you, choose your battle accordingly. Think tactically and strategically. Read Sun-Tzu’s Art of War and Nicolo Machiavelli’s The Prince, and live by them. Knock off (don’t kill) the lead bully first, and see if his followers back down immediately. Eliminating the alpha male will disorient the pack. Redirect your altogether understandable desire for revenge against those who have actually harmed you.
I wasn’t the “big, fat kid” who blossomed huge, bulging muscles. I’m 5" 6’ tall, in moderately decent shape. Same as I was in HS when I put an end to the bullshit. Two of my tormentors were football players; bigger, stronger and faster. But I was meaner. When I had to be. I took my anger and frustration “out of its box”, and channeled them in a disciplined, forthright manner just long enough to fight back. Then I put them away, where they sleep peacefully until aroused by those who would again try and take advantage of my better nature. It’s called discipline, or self-control if you will.
This is the first thing you’ve said that I can get behind, in the abstract. But spending my life in prison to get that level of satisfaction is, IMHO, a poor trade. A poster named Balance said over in IMHO that the best revenge is to live your life with dignity. He’s right. I’ve met some of my former tormentors IRL at reunions, and guess what. They’re still miserable assholes; fat, bald, and pissed-off at the world. I revel in their misery, largely because it’s self-inflicted.
Harming a third-party will in no way alleviate your misery, as your feeling of “relief” will be short lived when you see the assholes that tormented you on the prison TV talking about what “wierd little guy” you are.
Target the source of your pain. Address the people who harm you directly.
YWalker
I don’t necesarily see any contadiction here, other than a few posters who initially offered the advice that he off himself (thank you SexyWriter, Gaudere), overall we have been more…well, not exactly understanding…or sympathetic…but we are at least listening and offering positive feedback that he may not be getting. Call it emotional nourishment. His self image has been seriously abused IRL, and so he turns to this pseudo-world of electronic anonymity for a bolster. Nothing wrong with that, it’s just not the norm for this particular forum, with its plethora of intelligent, educated, sucessful posters. The kindness of strangers is often valued more, for there is no obligation for a stranger to feel kindly disposed towards another, especially for one espousing highly unpopular views.
I have enough karmic surplus to hand some off to someone in need of a boost, or is wrestling with life and losing. Been there and done that, and all that…
What he chooses to do with it is up to him, of course, which leads us into this:
J.E.T.:
[quote]
What I mean is that a lot of our actions are controlled by outside forces, more than you realize. I don’t want to get off on the whole Free Will vs. No Free Will debate here, but I definitely fall into the “No Free Will” camp.
[quote]
Unadulterated horseshit.
You are giving them more power over you by reacting to their moves. They have the initiative, and you give it to them. You must assert your will, in a disciplined manner, to take the initiative back from your tormentors. Then they will be your puppets, dancing to the strings that you pull. And inflicting pain and suffering in the name of vengeance on those who have hurt you is all fine and well, and I wholeheartedly approve. Especiaslly if they live a good long time to feel that pain. But humiliation and shame are forms of pain, too. And much less likely to get you in trouble with the law, and therefore deprive you the fruits of your victory.
Mr S.M. Stirling said in Marching Through Georgia:
You feel helpless because you are suffering the victim’s mentality. When you stop feeling that events are out of your control, and assert your will, not only will you have revenge, but victory as well.
You certainly seem smarter, so you have the mind to do as you please. Now develop the body and spirit to go along with it. You need physical and emotional exercise. It will take pain and sacrifice on your part, but you will not begrudge them in the long run, as it is pain and sacrifice you willingly partake and endure for yourself and your eventual betterment.
Most of all, it takes time. Time to develop your body, time to develop your spirit, from being a slave to the petty desires and amusement of others, to master of your situation.
So, J.E.T., animal-that-thinks, the ball is in your court, and has been from the moment the first bully singled you out as a victim who will not resist, a slave to be whipped and scorned, a dog to be kicked for a brief moment’s cruel amusement.
Will you lash out blindly, without discipline, like an animal, at those who have done nothing to you? Or will you direct yourself, mind, body and spirit, in a disciplined and focused manner, into asserting your will and mastery over the situation? And thusly your life?