Since I know this was aimed partly at me, I’ll address it. First, I’m a business man, the marketing director for an aerospace firm, so your comment that I distrust free enterprise is not valid. However, that being said there is an issue here.
Running a business, your first and primary goal is to make money. This is your end all for being. Whether or not you providing effective competition to others is a side issue (effecting only your bottom line). That being the case, a business is responsible to it’s shareholders.
The same is not the case for a public institution. Profit is not the goal, rather the edict laid out for that institution, as determined by legislature acting on behalf of the public. That being the case, a public institution is responsible to it’s citizens.
There’s a crucial difference between those two goals. Whether or not a private school can effectively spur competition with a public school is a non issue as far as I’m concerned. For me, I want the people resposible for education (sine an educated populace, benefits us as a whole) to be people responsibe to the citizens, not shareholers of a particular stock. (or persons holding a particular belief system)
We had school vouchers in our part of the county for several years. Each student in the county outside of the incorporated area had a choice of any school, including private and parochial. It saved creating a school in the “open middle” that no one wanted to go to.
With respect to your experience, this is pure speculation. It’s like telling the owner of JetBlue that he shouldn’t start his airline because there is no way he can charge $75 per person from Tampa to NY because he can’t turn a profit. Well, he did, and does. You have no clue (nor do I) as to the resourcefulness of businessmen (and the market) to solve problems such as this.
The “cost significantly more” attitude is true if the current system remains unchanged. The only solution I’ve heard from anti-voucher people is the tried and failed method of throwing more money at it.
Well, actually, the company is also responsible to it’s clients for without them there would be no company. Thus they have to pay attention to more than the bottom line. No educational results = loss of revenue.
Yeah I know that’s simplistic, but here’s the thing. To date, no one has produced a single study showing private schools bring up test scores vs their public counter parts. (or to be more precise delivery doesn’t equal quality)
From Wrath:
Cite? As has been metioned by me previously, the more money solution DOES work, in the case I mentioned it was to class size, more on this in a minute. Oh and I haven’t seen a whole bunch of money thrown at the problem either. As a matter of fact, didn’t this come up in Texas? Where after years of reccesion, instead of education money was directed towards a tax cut?
On what I mentioned previously, in California, legilation was passed to reduce class sizes. This of course involved hiring more teachers, adding protable class rooms etc. (i.e., throwing money at the problem) guess what happened? Better test scores!
Yes, I am speculating. But, I do have some experience and knowledge in the area, and I have been told that I’m a smart guy. I think that the competition thing is irrelevant because there has been motivation all along for schools to be successful and yet they so frequently fail. It may be that someone has been wanting to try a new idea and this will give them the opportunity. If so, then GREAT, let’s do it.
By the way, I HAVE proposed another solution that doesn’t involve just throwing money at the problem. It would be an expensive system but it involves a lot of radical changes, not just throwing money at the old system. My idea is to extend school hours to 40-45 hours a week, year round. I have more detail to this plan, some of which I have already explained. I don’t actually think that any politician will have the guts to try to use my plan. It’s too large of a change. I think it’s possible that somebody might try it with ONE inner city school somewhere. If it works at the test site, THEN some governor or president might think of attempting a wider usage. I’ve sent email to the Minnesota State government, both to their education people and to Jesse V… But, all I got in response was a form letter saying my letter had been recieved. I had some hope that Jesse would be open and attentive to my ideas, but he probably will never see it, and is too busy campaigning for most popular governor. Does he ever stop campaigning and start governing?
VileOrb Be of good cheer man, there are several similar programs to what you describe going on in various place throughout the country. On the whole I think it’s a good idea. This link should be helpful.
Though not all described are what you mentioned various programs of differing degrees are cited.
Amen to that, VileOrb! I’ve often had the same thought-most of the time, our educational institutions are empty! Think of a factory that sat idle most of the time (shut down for 3 months of summer!). Such a factory would lose tons of money-but this is how our schools are run! (Colleges and Universities likewise).
We need to think of education AS A BUSINESS, and measure it in business terms.
I don’t want you to feel totally ignored VO, you have raised some excellent points. Actually, here they are looking seriously into a full day Kindergarten and have ended social promotion so over 2,500 3rd graders are being held back in the State of Maryland. Summer school (year-round) is available for those that need it and has been for some time. Things are being done, I don’t propose that any public school wants to fail. But still, some are succeeding and some are failing.
Why?
The parental support is one thing. My parents were completely lost when it came to Algebra, but they made me do my homework. I think that is a whole work ethic thing, which, I have to agree, can’t be taught during a 6 hour school day where you are teaching discipline. Especially when the parents have no work ethic at all.
The money issue… the biggest chunks go to the schools with the parents with the most friends in high places. I don’t think anyone will disagree that there are alot of handshake deals with government officials and friends. And I won’t be naming any government officials…they are my friends
The voucher program can at least overcome the money issue by providing a better learning environment.
Taking a fantasy land scenario, based in reality because this does happen today, let’s say the State or City gives me a classroom at a public school, saving me alot of overhead costs, why? because I have friends. Okay, so there is my furnished classroom at no cost, maybe I will pay a little bit of rent. I could conceivably take 10 of those 10th graders with less than a 5th grade reading level and get some really high level, one-on-one teaching.
This could happen in the public school system, and I would encourage them to do it during the three year warning.
Think the teacher’s union would go for that? 8 hour days, year-round schooling? Me neither. Let’s do away with the unions as well, something the private sector wouldn’t have to deal with in the voucher plan.
I dont know why I continue with this “debate”. This has to be, the most obstinate type of debating I’ve seen. completely ignore anything that doesn’t support your position. This is precisely why I stopped posting on this topic.
Wrath, was that last “post” with the cite comment directed at me?
I think the teachers union would be fine with it if you paid the teachers proportionally more for the extra time.
Thanks for the site cite stuffinb. I notice that most of the criticism has to do with the expense of the system. They had hoped it would be cheaper. They still have the same number of total school days though. They just spread them out more. Also, they don’t have 8-9 hour days like I would like to see. The thing is, the plans in your scite are attempts to do a better job with the SAME amount of effort and money. Well, they have, in many cases, done a better job. The teachers seem to love it. The monetary benefits they cite are from lack of vandalism and being able to put more students in a single building by staggering their vacations. I think that by extending the school year you could use a lot of the money initially earmarked for day care assistance. Also, vandalism would go down further, and crime in general would likely go down. These savings and benefits would offset the expense somewhat, but not entirely. It’s still going to cost a lot. Because of the cost, and because of the hot summer days (which, I think, is another cost issue, AC could overcome this problem), some of these programs are being discontinued.
I see it as a good sign that people are at least considering tossing out the traditional summer vacation. Perhaps other traditions that have no place in modern culture can be tossed out as well.
I do see the glory of the free market. I am very much a capitalist. I just think that this works by motivating unmotivated people with money. The people you want to motivate here are already motivated. VERY motivated. I have seen teachers, principals, and administrators, scream and rant and cry and beg when schools fail. I have seen neighborhood organizations fall down on their knees in prayer because all their hard work had come to naught. I have lived in a neighborhood that needs the help. I picked a little 5 year old boy up off the street when he had be hit by a car at 3 in the morning (He was only bruised and scraped but very scared.). He couldn’t tell me where he lived, so I turned him over to a police officer. I also had a kid who looked to be about 10 try to mug me. He pulled a knife and demanded my money. I ran away. These children need attention. A lot of attention. More attention than we can expect to get from volunteers. We’re going to have to pay for this. I don’t think a radical change in the school system is “just throwing money at the problem.” It will be expensive.
You want accountability? Let’s hold the PARENTS accountable. Another thing I would like to do is charge parents with accessory to the crime when a minor commits a serious crime. So, the parent of a 14 year old murderer would be charged with accessory to murder.
Of course, what you’ve failed to mention in this scenario is that this was only true of a small fraction of the populace. The majority of people at that time did not get past elementary school. Many only completed the third grade, as they had gained the basic skills (reading, writing, some math) by then. Only a very few, generally college bound, went past the 8th grade.
We essentially had a do-it-yourself version of the student tracking system used in many countries today. I assure you that if we started doing this again, reducing the numbers of students to ONLY those who are both motivated and apt, we would see a drastic rise in education levels and test scores.
Of course, since most of the other students wouldn’t be able to find living-wage jobs due to the lack of agricultural and manufacturing positions, our overall standards of living would probably plummet just as drastically.
Y’Know, I go away from the thread for a few days and stuff like this happens.
A business controls its inputs. Education can’t.
A business specializes in producing a product, hopefully exactly the same as all its other products. Education shouldn’t.
A business closes plants, changes product lines or moves offshore if it thinks that will generate more revenue. Education doesn’t.
A business is accountable only to its stockholders. Education (for that matter, any tax-supported institution) doesn’t have that luxury.
A business is not required to serve unruly, disinterested customers until they are 16 or 18, whether the customer wants it or not.
Well, there’s motivation, and then there’s motivation. I ran a company that produced products I was interested in, and I enjoyed it immensely. But I could never stay in a comfort zone, because the forces of the market were constantly pushing me. So sometimes I had to do things I didn’t enjoy, or even take my products in directions I didn’t really care about, because the market forced me to.
Would I have been as motivated to excel if the only forces pushing me came from within? Most of the time, perhaps, but certainly not all. Would I really have busted my ass night and day to make that trade show, if my only reason for going was to show off what I’d done and get a pat on the back? Not likely.
Teacher’s Unions make this worse by eliminating rewards for excellence. Here in Canada, teachers are paid on a fixed scale, depending on education and years of service. That’s all. You can bust your ass four hours a night working up new, exciting things for your kids to do, and all you’ll get for your trouble is an ‘atta-boy’ from someone (or hostility from those who you make look bad). The slug of a teacher in the next class was out partying while you worked, but he makes more than you do because he started a year earlier.
You may stay motivated in an environment like this for a while, but over time it’s hard to maintain that intensity. So you’ll either slack off and become average, or you’ll quit. A LOT of excellent people leave education. Only the rare exceptions continue trying their best for decades on end.
Anyway, motivation is one part of it, but it’s not the only feature of the market. The primary consideration for me here is that the market excels at bottom-up improvement and innovation. Government Bureaucracies are top-down central control authorities that are very resistant to change, and when change does occur it typically comes from a few ‘smart’ people on top. That model simply doesn’t work.
For example, most everyone in this discussion is trying to apply current school practices to the voucher situation. We see schools as big buildings with huge numbers of students, sitting behind rows of desks with a teacher at the front of the class. Is this the best model for education in today’s world? I don’t know. Could be. But maybe not. A solution may come along that none of us could have predicted, if we let thousands of highly innovative people take a crack at it, properly motivated with the potential for huge profits if their new system works out.
That has nothing to do with the quality of education, and everything to do with the general poverty of the time. If people left school in grade 8, it was because they generally couldn’t afford to stay longer.
You’re suggesting that the ‘trouble’ kids left, which made it easier for the rest of the kids to learn. That may be partially true, but perhaps there is a lesson in there. Perhaps we need to find a new way to handle troubled kids, rather than just dumping them into the school population to screw up the educations of everyone else.
And again, I guarantee you that someone will come up with a school just for troublemakers. And they’ll be highly motivated to make it work well, because there would be a big market niche for them.
Kunilou Said:
This is just ridiculous. There are all kinds of businesses. Not all produce products. In fact, there are even businesses that teach people. And of course businesses don’t create products that are ‘exactly the same’ as their other products, or they wouldn’t need to make them. I can give you thousands of examples of businesses that don’t control their inputs, don’t produce products, vary greatly in what it is that they do, etc.
Fed Ex produces no products. It serves the needs of everyone from rural people to Manhattan office workers. To do this, it uses a wide ranging selection of tools from bicycles to trucks to airliners.
Companies often accept contracts to serve geographic areas, which means they have little control over ‘input’. They are forced to take the bad with the good. They accept the bad customers as loss leaders to enable them to serve the good customers.
What, is this red herring day or something? Please, North America is full of companies that can’t just pick up and relocate. Cab companies, for example, who also can’t pick and choose who they serve.
And HOW to they please their stockholders? By satisfying the needs of the market. Businesses are straightjacketed by the requirements of the market they compete in.
I attend a lot of management meetings, and planning meetings for new products. I have NEVER heard anyone talk about how to put one over on the customers, or how to plan obsolescence into our products, or anything else. The focus is always market driven - is the product designed well, is it of high quality, does it do at least the same things the competitor’s products do, can we maintain it effectively, etc. In other words, “Will our customers be happy with us if we offer this product? Does it fulfill a need?” That’s ALWAYS the focus. If an engineer came in to a meeting and said, “Great news! I’ve designed a product that works better than the competitor’s, and breaks after a year so the customer has to buy a new one!” he’d be fired on the spot.
When those icky shareholders vote for a management team, invariably all they care about is quality, service, and price.
Unless, of course, the law requires it. Or the market requires it. Regulatory control over private schools is another issue entirely, and the question of what to do with unruly students belongs there. But sure, companies often have to cater to people they’d rather not cater to, for PR reasons. Every company has ‘bad’ customers. In the computer industry, probably 5% of all customers generate 90% of the tech support calls. When I worked in retail, we knew on sight a number of customers who were notorious for buying things and then returning them. We still served them with a smile.
In the case of a private school, it can’t afford to just kick students out willy-nilly at the drop of a hat. There are consequences. Irate parents will write letters to the newspaper, or tell all their friends to never send their kids to that school. “Private School Review” magazine might run a series on intolerance, and finger you. And of course, you lose the money that you’re earning from the kid.
And if this is a real concern, I’m sure that parents of at-risk kids are going to shop for schools that promise to make every attempt to teach them, and are willing to sign contracts to that effect. Or perhaps there will be some other mechanism that none of us have thought of.
We could take this discussion back to the start of any other industry, and you could raise all the same objections. Let’s say this was 1920, and we were all debating whether government should run these new airlines that are springing up. You could argue that if the government doesn’t run them some people might be refused. Or that some out-of-the-way places might not get air service. Or that the government is necessary because no one could possibly run an airline at a profit. Our arguments would all be based around the rickety planes of the time, because none of us could foreseee the tremendous advances in airframes, avionics, and procedures that would revolutionize aviation and make it available to all.
