School Vouchers - Would they work?

[Pigs_in_Space]

Originally posted by Wrath *
You can’t look at the market now because it is not a free market with competition. Choices are few and far between, because there aren’t many customers with money (yet).*

The private schools have a free market with competition right now. Most private schools have way more applicants than slots right now. Even allowing for students applying to more than one school, there’s still more students with money than the schools can handle. It doesn’t matter whether there’s enough students for 5 more schools or fifty, by your model, more schools should open.

Look at it another way: Suppose the lowest tuition now is $5K. That means there would be plenty of families with $4.5K who want to go to private school. If competition will drive the prices down and cater to the available market, schools should open. Why aren’t they opening?

Originally posted by Wrath *
And no voucher system proposed means spending “millions and millions,” it means taking the money we are currently spending and handing it back to the parents in a form that can only be given back to an accredited school.*

If there’s going to be vouchers, there’s going to be bureaucracy to go along with it. Someone will have to figure out how many vouchers they have money for. Someone will have to make up applications. Someone will have to evaluate those applications. Someone will have to come up with a metric to evaluate applications, maybe come up with an appeals process, because there will be people who disagree with their rejections. Someone will have to mail out the checks. Someone will have to investigate possibilities of fraud. Depending on which voucher system you go for, someone will have to certify potential private schools. Seeing as you believe government is so wasteful, how much do you think it will take? I’m sticking with millions. And that’s before the vouchers.

Originally posted by Wrath *
Comments like this make me realize that you have not thoroughly given effort to see if the system might actually work, and it’s too bad because you are so intelligent and I feel gipped that you and the others really haven’t considered the option and although you have brought up fine points (all of which can be resolved) it appears you only argue for status quo.*

Gee, I’m lucky you’re here to tell me, seeing as I haven’t been able to figure it out, despite the fact that both my parents are educators and I went to both public and private schools. The point isn’t whether they can be resolved, it’s whether they will be resolved. You’re the one who thinks government won’t follow through.

I haven’t argued for the status quo, I’ve argued against vouchers. There’s a difference.

*Originally posted by Wrath *
To the anti-voucher camp, what do you propose to help the situation of poor school performance? I’m not aware of a single compelling new idea. **

Satan and I both posted suggestions earlier, but I’m too tired to find them. And ideas don’t have to be new, they have to be good. If they haven’t been tried in a particular school, they can still help.

On to JAG

Originally posted by JAG
I wasn’t talking about taking practice exams for three weeks, I agree with you that is wasteful and should be prohibited (is prohibited by some) at the State level. I was referring to your reference to telling students how SAT exams are graded, 1 pt per correct answer and 1/4 pt per incorrect answer. That took me about 10 seconds. It is a smart thing to do. **

10 seconds isn’t enough for many, and it isn’t what happens, as I showed.

Originally posted by JAG
quote:
Pigs In SpacePlease show me where I said that vouchers will destroy or replace public schools. I said that they are a lousy solution and will make matters worse.

quote:
Pigs In Space If schools live or die by a test, this is what will happen. Sheesh. **

Let’s look at the whole quote:

quote:

Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy
To the extent of taking a practice test every day for three weeks, I agree, that does not benefit the students. Since it is up to the States to test and evaluate the schools, it will also be up to the States to protect against improper conduct at individual schools…

quote:
Pigs In Space This IS how the schools are evaluated. This is what YOU are advocating. If schools live or die by a test, this is what will happen. Sheesh.

It is clear that “this” refers to teaching to the test, not destroying schools. Quoting out of context is will not help you in any way.

As to the importance of memorization, you assumed I would agree with you, I didn’t. I still don’t.

Originally posted by JAG
There will continue to be private schools and colleges that intentionally price themselves to the rich. **

AS I POINTED OUT PREVIOUSLY many of these schools have excellent financial aid, and many of the students, if not the majority, use it. They are not just for the rich, so how can they price themselves that way?

Originally posted by JAG
That has everything to do with the point that schooling in higher education is standardized. **

The point being discussed was whether competition will drive down prices, not standardization of higher ed. That point (commpetition) was made. By the way, the numbers you quoted only prove the point even more - colleges charge more than they have to. Competition didn’t drive the prices down.

Originally posted by JAG
Unless I misunderstood you, ‘they’ referred to colleges, including public colleges. I am saying the only way a college can choose their students is based on financial means (including financial aid and GSLs) and SAT/ACT scores. Anything else is discrimination. That is… illegal discrimination. If I misunderstood the reference, I apologize. **

Yeah, that’s who “they” meant. I can’t figure out where you thought they used something other academic performance. I said nothing like that. And AS I POINTED OUT PREVIOUSLY, many colleges have need-blind admissions - financial aid and admissions don’t even know about each other.

As for how you would fix schools, why couldn’t that be done now, without vouchers? What makes vouchers the only thing that can make this happen? Vouchers are not central to the issue, which is what I wanted you to see.

You asked before what I would do. I answered before.

Originally posted by JAG
I am saying that schools are cutting deals behind the scenes to get money out of the system. You do believe that happens don’t you? A voucher system will give the folks without the political pull the opportunity to flex their arms a bit, maybe get the attention their schools need. **

Cutting deals with whom? How are they getting money out of the system? AS I POINTED OUT PREVIOUSLY, I believe that every red penny is accounted for in a budget that is given to the government, and in many places, voted on by the populace.

Originally posted by Sam Stone
There is a simple reason why there are no low-cost private schools - because the government subsidizes that sector of the marketplace.

To continue the shoe analogy - if the government gave out free, low-cost shoes to everyone, and you wanted to go into the shoe business, would you attempt to sell low-cost shoes?**

Ah, but by your analogy, the government’s shoes are crappy, not worth the time to pick them up. Therefore, people would still want good low-cost shoes. Or, if the government does make good shoes, why should it subsidize the free market low-cost shoes?

You seemed to have dropped the bad parent stuff. Want to comment on that part?

Originally posted by Sam Stone
…Just a teacher who had a good job and knew she’d be fired if she screwed up (and who probably loved her work), and a town that paid close attention to the quality of education their kids were getting because the money was coming directly out of THEIR pockets to the teacher THEY hired. **

Vouchers are not the only way to have accountability. If you believe they are, explain why. See my answer to JAG before you reply.

[Pigs_in_Space]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sam Stone *
**

And again, I guarantee you that someone will come up with a school just for troublemakers. And they’ll be highly motivated to make it work well, because there would be a big market niche for them.
**

They exist. They’re really expensive. How will it help if it’s priced out of the reach of most people, even with vouchers?

Also, this assumes that the parents want to help the troublemakers. Some parents are lousy, and won’t help their kids, even if the school is there, even if the money is there. What do we do for them?

[Kent_Clark]

Well, Sam Stone gave a thoughtful reply to my response to egkelly, and that’s what this board is all about.

But rather than get into a lesser debate about the quality of metaphors and comparisons, let me restate the premise I’m trying to propose.

Public schools are not businesses. Public schools do not operate like private schools. I’ve outlined my thoughts on that in earlier posts, and don’t feel the need to restate them.

If you think public schools are broken and private schools are better, why don’t you advocate allowing public schools to operate under the same freedoms as private schools? Similarly, if you believe all students should have freedom of educational choice, why don’t you also advocate that private schools operate under the same restrictions as public schools?

[Wrath]

*Originally posted by kunilou *
If you think public schools are broken and private schools are better, why don’t you advocate allowing public schools to operate under the same freedoms as private schools? Similarly, if you believe all students should have freedom of educational choice, why don’t you also advocate that private schools operate under the same restrictions as public schools? **

I think that’s pretty much what we are advocating.

[nitpick]
It’s not student’s choice, it’s mainly parents’ choice on behalf of the child.
[/nitpick]

[VileOrb]

OK, You have convinced me somewhat that this voucher is at least worth trying. Here’s where I see the next big hurdle. New school won’t pop up immediately (and it’s the newly designed schools that I put my hopes on, not the existing private schools) it will take a year or two or five to start new schools that are ready to take on the challenges. In the mean time, all the bad things are going to happen with students going to schools that are not prepared for them. I have serious doubts about the program being able to weather the storm long enough for the new school to fill the breach.

I still have my doubts about the money being enough to cause new school development. I have my doubts that anyone will be able to put together a money making school for disadvantaged (not necessarily troublesome) students at all. You’ve convinced me that there is a possibility. And, if one person does it, then more will follow. I really think that there are more likely ways to improve the system (all of which would cost), but that doesn’t mean I want to oppose something the might work. I don’t want to put ALL my hopes on one program and my serious reservations about the program will prevent me from actuvely supporting it. I encourage you voucher supporters to keep your mind open to other opportunities to salvage our failing system.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally posted by Wrath
10 seconds isn’t enough for many, and it isn’t what happens, as I showed.

Actually, you showed no such thing. You said your school spent three weeks on practice exams. That is not teaching the method of the test, that is teaching the test and memorization. There is educational value in memorization whether you personally choose to see it or not. However, I concur that the repetitious taking of practice exams over a three week period is improper and I am sure your State did not support such methods. Still, teaching specific test-taking methods does not take much time and is well worth the investment.

As to your words about schools living and dieing by the voucher system or the test, they were your words not mine, restating them a fourth time won’t help you to see that, I think everyone else has seen it. Let’s move on.

by Pigs in SpaceAs to the importance of memorization, you assumed I would agree with you, I didn’t. I still don’t.

Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t make it any less true.

Here is Webster on learning:

1 a (1) : to gain knowledge or understanding of or skill in by study, instruction, or experience <learn a trade> (2) : MEMORIZE <learn the lines of a play> b : to come to be able <learn to dance> c : to come to realize <learned that honesty paid>

The basis of all learning is memorization. If nothing is committed to memory, the learning experience was a waste of the time of both the instructor and the pupil. One method of teaching is repetition, there are many other methods, but it is all directed at memorizing the material. Why else would people ‘cram’ before a test? To plug all that information into their short term memory where it is easier to ‘download’.

Originally posted by JAG
There will continue to be private schools and colleges that intentionally price themselves to the rich. **

Pigs in Space said AS I POINTED OUT PREVIOUSLY many of these schools have excellent financial aid, and many of the students, if not the majority, use it. They are not just for the rich, so how can they price themselves that way?

That changes absolutely nothing. If I price myself to the rich, i.e. selling million dollar yachts, or $40,000 per year tuitions, I don’t care where you get the money, I am still pricing myself to the rich. Not everyone gets that kind of financial aid. Maybe everyone in your family did, but not every educationally eligible student in the country. Every educationally eligible student in the country can get enough financial aid to go to A college, but not Harvard. These schools are still priced to the rich.

Originally posted by JAG
That has everything to do with the point that schooling in higher education is standardized. **

*By Pigs In Space *The point being discussed was whether competition will drive down prices, not standardization of higher ed. That point (commpetition) was made. By the way, the numbers you quoted only prove the point even more - colleges charge more than they have to. Competition didn’t drive the prices down.

You have continuously argued against standardized testing and standardized educational requirements. I precisely answered that question with a comparison to higher education, a near necessity in today’s employment environment. If you elect to apply my definative answer to one of your objections to some other question in an attempt to evade it’s relevance, I can’t stop you. But my point was made, answered the issue that I directly referred to and the rest of the reading world can see that.

Another point was made, very specifically, that you argued that the public schools at $8k per child were less than college tuitions at public universities. You asked for cites, I gave them to you, you were wrong, don’t try to smoke screen it, accept it.

Further, even on your smoke screen point, college was unaffordable by the masses 30-40 years ago. Today, it is affordable to everyone and there are more colleges, filled beyond capacity than ever. How you came to the conclusion that colleges “charge more than they have to” from the numbers provided, not by me, but by national information resources, is beyond me. Please specify exactly how you come to this conclusion. Further, please specify exactly how it pertains to this debate. What does it even mean to charge more than you have to?

A voucher system would be a fixed amount so I fail to see the relevance of that statement.

By Pigs In Space
As for how you would fix schools, why couldn’t that be done now, without vouchers? What makes vouchers the only thing that can make this happen? Vouchers are not central to the issue, which is what I wanted you to see.

I absolutely see that. If that is the only thing you need me or others to see, I am sure that they will agree that vouchers are not going miraculously heal the failing public schools. No, vouchers give an out for those schools and school systems that choose not to go along with my or your or anyone elses suggestions. It gives those children the opportunity to move to a school that will do the right thing for their educational needs.

Cutting deals with whom? How are they getting money out of the system? AS I POINTED OUT PREVIOUSLY, I believe that every red penny is accounted for in a budget that is given to the government, and in many places, voted on by the populace.

Yes, every penny is accounted for. But school A, because it is in the district of the Mayor’s son can get more money than school B, which is not, in any given year. The money is still accounted for but the decisions of how much money goes to which school is not made by the taxpayers or the teachers, it is made by politicians.
As to the non-caring parent issue, I answered it previously. Of couse a voucher program cannot make parents care. Neither can any amount of money thrown into the public system. But if there is even the most remote chance that someone else can educate these students with the bad parents, isn’t that better than throwing in the towel? Otherwise we will see generation after generation because students with unknowledgable, uncaring parents grow up to be unknowledgable, uncaring parents if your read on education is correct. How will you ever stop it?

There has to more to the equation of education than whether parents care or not. I graduated college, my younger brother graduated high school, my youngest brother dropped out of high school. Do you believe they cared less about the third brother than they did me? It isn’t all about caring parents either, it is a combination of bad schooling, bad school environment, bad home environment and bad parenting all adding up to a failing school. The voucher program can provide an alternative to half of these things.
Throughout the debate, ideas have been posted, even by the pro-vouchers like myself as to how schools can improve. I am all for that. Pro-voucher is not anti-public school. It is for good public schools and for fixing or offering options to those stuck in bad public schools. Unfortunately there is no miracle cure for a bad school. If there is, someone would have three years to find it and implement it. Everyone has a Congressperson, they can write with their ideas and if they get enough support for a bill, only an idiot of a President would turn down an idea or further funding of schools… it is political suicide. [hijack]see Clinton on the current spending package planned veto =)[/hijack]

[Wrath]

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
**

Originally posted by Wrath
10 seconds isn’t enough for many, and it isn’t what happens, as I showed.

**

That wasn’t me. Honest.

*Originally posted by VileOrb *
OK, You have convinced me somewhat that this voucher is at least worth trying.

Auntie Em!!!

[JustAnotherGuy]

*Originally posted by Wrath *
**

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
**

Originally posted by Wrath
10 seconds isn’t enough for many, and it isn’t what happens, as I showed.

**

That wasn’t me. Honest.

**

[embarassed blush on]
Whhhhhhooooooooppppss

Please substitute Pigs in Space for Wrath in the above post.
[embarassed blush off]

[VileOrb]

How I will stop the problems of the non caring parent cycle:
By replacing the parents somewhat with longer year round school hours and by holding the parents more accountable for their children.

Didn’t I say this before?

There may be other ways. It is remotely possible that the voucher program will help. It is, IMO, likely that the voucher program will harm in the short run. But, if it really does result in new, radically different, schools opening, then it MAY help in the long run. I think this is a remote possibility.