Schools and Cellphones

The BBQ Pit
81

[QUOTE=Spoons]
Perhaps a better question is, “why should you be allowed to continue?” You can text, converse, photograph, whatever as much as you like, as long as it is not done in class. Hey, if you’re at the local student hangout or in the park or at a friend’s, why should you be stopped indeed? But if you’re paying attention to your phone in class, then regardless of how distracting you claim it isn’t, you’re not paying attention to the instructor who is teaching the class. That’s insulting to the instructor and to your fellow students–you obviously feel that what the instructor has to say and what the students are contributing to the class is less important than whatever is being communicated over your phone.

Anyway, you have established that you have no intention of paying attention to the instructor if your phone demands your attention. So why are you there at all? Why not just give up on school and pay attention to your phone? There are no doubt plenty of jobs out there for someone like you. Here, let’s practice your future career dialog: “Hi, welcome to Fatso Burger. Can I take your order?” “Today’s Tuesday, so our Fatso Plus is on special.” “Do you want fries with that?” Here’s a hint, kid: if you’re on my clock, then you’re doing what I tell you while you are on my clock. You wanna earn a living between hours X and Y? Then get to work. You wanna text your friends between hours X and Y and expect me to pay you for it? Here’s your severance and your pink slip. You can’t have it both ways; today’s school is just preparing you for what you’ll encounter from an employer. In a lot nicer way.

Get your priorities straight right now. Get an education while it is offered to you, and use your oh-so-wonderful communication technology outside of class hours.

Featherlou, it’s my ancient sensibilities acting up too. I’ll buy you a glass of Geritol someday, should our walkers and wheelchairs cross paths again.
[/QUOTE]

In a question of “To Allow/To Prohibit,” I tend to lean towards “allow.” Allowing people their liberties leads to a sense of ease, which I believe contributes towards a learning environment for people who want to learn. The contrary perhaps provides a narrow walkway for less motivated people to follow but hinders the rest of us. Indeed, I have a friend who decided to work extra hard this year (his junior year) so he can graduate and go to college a year early to escape the rigorous and anachronistic system which is our school corporation.

I never said that my use of a cell phone wasn’t distracting to me. I just said that it wasn’t distracting to my peers, and that assertion holds. As for my phone being more important than what the instructor has to say, perhaps it is not but it is occasionaly far more interesting. When we spend fifteen minutes recaping mitosis because Jane doesn’t get it, I generally find something to do with my time other than listen. I don’t need to hear the same information twenty times. Two or three is plenty. The students themselves rarely say anything of intellectual importance due to:

  1. The fact that one doesn’t talk when the teacher is talking.
  2. The fact that when the teacher calls upon one to talk, it is generally to answer a question about which the class should have learned from the reading the night before.
  3. The fact that in the relatively small time that students spend talking, the ratio of mundanity to intellectual brilliance which comes from their mouths is usually steeply in favor of banality.

As for the instructor feeling disrespected, all I can do is quote
[QUOTE=Klaatu]
Tough shit.
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes, I feel disrespected too. The rigorous structure of the school rules is not very mindful of the feelings of the students. As long as I keep up my studies and do well, my disrespecting you does not affect your job performance and you get your teacher’s paycheck.

Why am I at school, you ask? Why, to learn. However, the government requires that I be there for eight hours. I would say that only two or three of those hours are actually spent imparting new information into our heads. The other five or six are spent reviewing and answering questions. To fill in that time, I read books or text.

I hate to sound like an arrogant ass, but judging by my GPA and SAT score, the divinations which your oracle made for my future at Fatso Burger are as true as the predictions of an easy takeover in Iraq. Assuming that I find work somewhere other than the service sector, your analogy seems to be faulty. I once again bring up the example of Dopers using the board while at work. They obviously have some down time in which they are being paid while doing something other than the work they have alotted to them. Somehow, I haven’t seen any threads about workers losing their jobs due to message board use. It is the same situation with cell phones.

I still see no good reason for a blanket ban on phones, other than “It’s easier to ban them than regulate their use.”

82

[QUOTE=Danja]

I still see no good reason for a blanket ban on phones, other than “It’s easier to ban them than regulate their use.”
[/QUOTE]

Many of today’s public schools have zero tolerance for thinking and exercising judgment.

83

Well, I guess I’m still dodging lightning for daring to suggest drugdealing might be easier in schools with cellphones & beepers, but I’m still not convinced that cellphones enhance or add to a learning environment (as opposed to being a major distraction to the owner, the instructor of the class the owner attends, and the students stuck sitting next to that owner). I’m not convinced that kids that age have the discipline to keep ‘their precious’ in their lockers, when all it can do is actively call them away from their studies.

[OldFogeyParentMode]Look, kids managed to to go to school without their pockets stuffed full of Hotwheels & Pokemon Cards in first grade. They managed to attend school (and live) w/o their Gameboy/DS in fifth grade. They can manage to live w/o a cellphone for 8 hours of education until they graduate. [/OldFogeyParentMode]

84

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
It also might apply some peer pressure, as your compadres are probably a little annoyed that your goofing off interrupted the lesson and their learning. Nothing is greater for a teacher than when the students shoot the evil eye to a peer who has been distracting them from learning.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll never forget the Anthro class session back at MPC when a group of young students in the back row were causing quite a ruckus. One of the students–strong guy, too–in the front row raised his hand and asked the instructor if he minded the student saying something. The instructor gave his permission and the student turned around and said,

85

[QUOTE=Danja]
I once again bring up the example of Dopers using the board while at work. They obviously have some down time in which they are being paid while doing something other than the work they have alotted to them. Somehow, I haven’t seen any threads about workers losing their jobs due to message board use. It is the same situation with cell phones.
[/quote]

Which is a false analogy. Students aren’t (at least in my district) being paid to go to class. Do we post from work? Sure. Are there other things that we should sometimes be doing? Absolutely. Does that have a damned thing to do with students using mobile phones in class? No way in hell.

Y’wanna debate the merits or lack thereof inre students using mobile phones in class? By all means. But argue from an intellectually honest position.

And that’s certainly true. But schools have to deal with any number of students. Some of them may very well be bored titsless. But schools can’t create rules that make exceptions for the bored. Just as they can’t do so for those who are struggling. Students have been pissing and moaning about unjust rules since I was but a wee lad, watching the zeppelins drift by. If you desire to change things, get involved.

86

[QUOTE=Inner Stickler]
I appreciate your concern for my well-being.
[/quote]

I don’t give a crap about your well-being. If that fancy private school of yours actually taught you reading comprehension, you’d realize I said nothing of the sort. :wink:

If you were a student in my school, and your precious little devices got stolen, rest assured you WOULD bother someone about it, and it would be a huge pain in the ass, even though it was your own damn fault for bringing shit like that to school. So let’s not be disingenuous here-- you wouldn’t just absorb a theft like that in school and not make it someone else’s problem.

Sorry, but it doesn’t really sound like you are.

I think they come from wanting things your own way, and using juvenile comments like, “Where exactly would I acquire a grip? Home Depot?” to make your point. Maybe self-servingly fatuous would be a better description of your attitude than naive. In any case, you sound like every teenager who has ever whinily insisted she needs her bloody cell phone 24/7. It cuts no ice with me.

Bullshit. I am not just going to let kids answer phones in class because I’ve surrendered to your proposition that “this is how the world is now.” Kids aren’t allowed to read comic books in their desks or listen to their iPods in class either, even though technically that distracts no one but the individual doing it. It is part of my job to minimize distractions and penalize lack of attention. I’m not going to stop doing it so you can write a text to your buddy on your cellphone.

Yes, in fact, if you are at work and you need quiet, and have respectful and decent co-workers, you CAN expect them to be quiet. This is a false comparison though. What you’re suggesting is that, while you’re conducting a staff meeting at your office, all your employees should be able to be talking on their phones, texting, listening to music, playing games, whatever, while you are trying to talk to them. This is NOT how most offices run their meetings because… IT’S FUCKING RUDE and unprofessional. Just as it is rude to do those things in class. Not acceptable, never going to be. Not to mention that you might be missing vital information, though your attitude seems to be that listening to the teacher is optional. I rather think not, and it’s arrogant of you to suggest it is.

87

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Exactly how many times did you have to call for a ride home? That’s one Christ of a lot of quarters and days of confusing plans if it added up to more than four bucks over the course of a school year.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly? Well, that would be tough to remember, since it’s been a while since I was in high school. To my recollection, though, it was a couple times a week. Might not be the case for your average school kid these days. YMMV.

I do vividly remember my parents complaining about the cost of collect calls home for pickups on a number of occasions. On days I’d forget to bring change with me, I’d call home collect from a payphone and get raped by the phone company.

Maybe my school experience was atypical, but I did have to get picked up late quite a bit when busses weren’t running - late sports meets, band practices, late nights with the school newspaper, etc. Having a cell phone really would have helped.

88

Another reason the “posting at work” comparison doesn’t work is that some of us actually have our employer’s permission to post at work.

89

[QUOTE=Duckster]
I wonder how all the rest of us managed to survive intact, growing up in a world decades before cell phones ever existed?
[/QUOTE]

And we didn’t have teh Interweb back in the day, or Nintendo Wii either! We are all victims and should sue for reparations–even though we lived to tell the tale!

90

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
I don’t give a crap about your well-being. If that fancy private school of yours actually taught you reading comprehension, you’d realize I said nothing of the sort. :wink:
[/QUOTE]

I chose to interpret “Some people just acquire a grip by living in the real world. Apparently you’re not one of them and need remedial grip. School of Hard Knocks gives them out with tuition, which I’m sure you’ll pay soon enough.” as concern for my well-being rather than smarmy self-righteousness from someone who doesn’t know me from Adam. Now I’d hate for you to pop a blood vessel, gramps, so TTFN.

91

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
Calculators have a role essential in the educational process.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and even I got tired of typing 5318008 and turning it upside down after a few hundred times. Limited amusement potential.

If I’d had access to something that would play “Super Mario Bros.” in class— well, this post wood probalee look very diferrent!!@ LOL

92

My district banned cell phones after the third little fight of the year turned into brawls which hospitalised someone.

Here is how it works. Janny hears from Sally that Jennifer was looking at her boyfriend. Janny decides that she should fight Jennifer. Jennifer hears from Ralph that Janny plans on fighting her after school and Janny phones her cousin Seymore to bring the tribe. Janny hears that the tribe is assembling and summons her own Cohort. Someone lets the whole kit and kaboodle in the lunch room back door and we are off with a riot.*

There was another fight last year which involved someone’s cousin phoning a bunch of people to rush the basketball court during a game. I don’t recall what the fight was about except that it was inane.

I have had kids answering the phone in the middle of class and telling me that it was their mother so they had to talk to her. I have had a kid pick up the phone in the middle of class and start to dial. There is constant theft. The cell phones have been a huge problem. What makes the whole thing worse is that the little darlings believe they are entitled to do all of it.

The district created an out for parents, whereby parents who really believe their child needs one for safety walking home or for extracurricular activities sign a permission slip,. and the phone is put in the safe in the office at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day the kid comes and gets it.

The fact is that I know kids still carry them, many more probably have them in their locker, and noone is truely looking for them, but the problems have really slowed. Had the students been behaving and taught manners in the first place, we would not have needed to go to this point.

Names changed but rundown of the riot in my lunch room last year.

93

[QUOTE=Danja]

  1. I think that if a student is sending someone pornographic material, they will get it to them whether they have a phone or not. You might as well ban disposable cameras too because who knows, I may have the urge to photograph myself as I take a shit and post it on the wall :rolleyes:
    [/QUOTE]
    Wow, that’s not what I meant at all. I’m not even sure how you got out that out of what I posted. Gyms ban cell phone use due to privacy speaks to the issue better. Also, read the editor’s note in this article: Camera cell phone is latest student privacy threat.

[QUOTE=Danja]
2. I have tried to photograph a paper during class (not for cheating purposes; we had an information packet which we were studying in class and my friend, who was absent from school that day, wanted to know what he had to know by the next day so I tried to photograph the cover so he could find the correct one out of our myriad of redundant packets) and speaking from experience, it is all but impossible to photograph it discreetly. I ended up giving up and trying to describe it via text.
[/QUOTE]
Well, you’re wrong. That’s all I can say to that. Or maybe you had a really crappy picture phone. See High-tech cheating comes to high schools, Cheating with Cell Phones, and School Officials Ban Cell Phones After Cheating Attempt. Just because it didn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

[QUOTE=Danja]
3. Those who want to cheat, will. Those don’t, won’t. It’s as simple as that. A blanket ban over cell phones doesn’t eliminate the problem; it only takes away one option from the cheaters. You may as well spend the last half hour of class making every student empty their backpacks and check all of their papers for torn-out corners. You should also look at the students as they take their tests to see if anyone has a question instead of surfing the internet.
[/QUOTE]
Wrong. That is so, so, so wrong. Those who want to cheat, might try, but I’m not going to just give up and say if you’re determined to cheat, go ahead! And yes, I do check students’ essays against the internet on occasion, and I walk around the room during tests, and I make them clear their desks off, too! My God! I’m a monster! Why won’t I let the poor angels cheat?

[QUOTE=Danja]
4. Can friends not call in fake emergencies on normal phones? One of my friends called himself in sick a few days ago. Somehow, his use of his house phone did not prevent him from being excused from school that day.
[/QUOTE]
Once again, you misunderstand. I’m talking about friends calling the cell phone and telling them to pretend there’s an emergency and they have to leave. It doesn’t work, because the “parent” still has to call the front office, but it wastes time, allows kids to coordinate better, and is just a nuisance. Granted, it’s not the biggest problem in the world, but it’s happened. Take your picture phone to your next AP test and argue that since you can’t actually see the picture very well, it should be ok. See how that works our for you, m’kay?

[QUOTE=Danja]
5. In middle school, I can completely see theft being a problem. However, in High School, I have yet to hear of a single person having their phone stolen. A phone is an object that people tend to hold on to. I don’t see how it would get stolen. And if it is, tough luck. Keep it on your person at all times.
[/QUOTE]
Once again, you’re wrong. If you want me to get incident reports of theft from my school, I suppose I can, but there’s rarely a day that goes by without thefts. Hell, my school got rid of lockers partly because they kept getting broken into. Just two days ago, a kid had his PSP stolen from his backpack while on the way to my classroom, and spent the next hour freaking out about it and accusing half the class of stealing it, even at one point starting to go through other kids’ backpacks. (Should I have just ignored it because asking him to stop would be the true distraction, and then you’d chuckle?) At least once a week a kid comes looking for a phone that they either lost of got stolen. And that’s not an exaggeration – it’s happen twice this week, for that matter.

[QUOTE=Danja]
I hate to sound like an arrogant ass,
[/QUOTE]
No, I think you’re quite proud of it, actually. But that’s ok; at your age, you know everything.

94

[QUOTE=mks57]
Pay phones are rapidly becoming an anachronism. The cell phone has nearly destroyed their economic base. Pay phone operators are not charitable institutions. That’s why they have been disappearing from public places.
[/QUOTE]
I have a BellSouth pay phone from when they liquidated the operation a few years back. It’s a bit too heavy to just hang on a nail, though… I’ll eventually find somewhere to put it up.
[QUOTE=featherlou]
Actually, you should be using classtime to learn. If the teacher is making the effort to be there and teach (payed, albeit, but they’re still there doing a job), the proper thing to do is for students to pay attention to what the teacher is trying to teach them. That’s probably my ancient sensibilities showing, though.
[/QUOTE]
What do you think student attention is, a charity? Want students to pay attention, make some attempt to earn it.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the student is there to learn not to pay attention to the teacher.

95

And I hate to put too fine a point on it, but paying attention to the teacher = learning. Kids learn FROM THE TEACHER, which they can’t do if they’re on the phone. Blaming the teacher for not being interesting enough to keep kids off their phones, therfore they should be allowed to have their phones, is bullshit.

[QUOTE=Inner Stickler]
I chose to interpret “Some people just acquire a grip by living in the real world. Apparently you’re not one of them and need remedial grip. School of Hard Knocks gives them out with tuition, which I’m sure you’ll pay soon enough.” as concern for my well-being rather than smarmy self-righteousness from someone who doesn’t know me from Adam. Now I’d hate for you to pop a blood vessel, gramps, so TTFN.
[/QUOTE]

I notice you have no rebuttal for anything I said, just insults. Probably because your argument has no substance beyond “I want my cellphone/Oompa Loompa NOW!”

You asked how to get a grip. I told you how-- life, living it, in the real world, not some fantastical private school where everyone is moral, no one steals, and kids can just go home and come back whenever they want, and actually DO come back. That (in my clearly much greater life experience, since I’m apparently elderly now for being older than your trifling little self) is not the real world.

BTW “Where do I get a grip, at Home Depot?” might be the smarmiest thing I’ve read on here in recent memory, so look to the mote in your own eye, kiddo.

96

Now I know we’re all having fun here, but there’s this worrying trend of students treating the schooling process like a bad episode of a third-rate sitcom. Education really isn’t comparable to many things, including work, attending a rock concert, and the like. It’s the process of learning in a social environment.

I can certainly take issue with some aspects of the educational process. I was a student and a teacher who ran in the halls, for instance. I generally don’t like zero tolerance policies. But I think the point that several people in this thread are missing is the fact that there is something called civility. Sometimes you have to tolerate being bored or disinterested because that’s how life is. It won’t kill you, and it builds a little character. So you won’t bust out with the Nintendo DS when your company’s CEO is giving a speech.

I actually regularly hear from students that my teaching is engaging and exciting. But guess what? I’m human. I am occasionally off, disorganized - dare I say it - boring! But even if you’re Albert Einstein, I expect you to put forth the effort to be engaged in the lesson as best you can. In exchange, you can expect me to do my best to teach, reteach, review, provide individual assistance and instruction, and generally be open to hearing your issues and concerns, even beyond the course content.

There are certainly times when I want to check my voicemail, or e-mail when we’re doing a group activity, or students are writing. But I don’t because that would be rude. Someone might need a question answered, or just be comforted in seeing the teacher floating around the class.

There is something to be said about the fact that despite technology and the advances of the ages, we still learn much like Plato’s and Socrates’ students learned. I imagine there were days when some of those pupils were bored shitless, or were thinking about something else. If you truly feel that being in a classroom is a waste of time, why not bring it up to your teachers? Ask for more challenging assignments, or an independent project. Or take your GED and start college early… only problem is, they have boring teachers there too!

This thread has been quite fascinating to me. I’m going to make sure that I have a huge section on cellphone usage in my syllabi for next year’s courses.

97

I think that’s the real issue, Hippy. We stick to a tried-and-true formula for education, one which has changed little in centuries, because we continue to believe that it works.

How many students in today’s first-world countries need the summer off to help with the harvest?

How many students will work under six different employers during the day, drifting from one assignment to the next?

How many students today will be expected to complete their jobs in complete and total isolation without a calculator, without calling a friend for advice, without having notes to assist them?

I understand the concept behind a “closed book test.” One is testing a student’s ability to have memorized the relevant information. How applicable is this to the job I do? Well, I read medical reports and assign CPT codes and ICD-9 codes to the bill. If I know the medical terminology, and I remember the code, I do it from memory. If I can’t recall the proper code, or I can’t interpret the terminology of the report, I look it up. Consulting a reference manual is a skill that was not taught often in my school because of the emphasis on rote memorization. All that did was teach me how to memorize.

The question is not whether cell phones in schools should be banned. To me, the question is, does banning cell phones create an artificial environment that fails to teach kids how the real world works, and is this a good thing?

There are often times in my job where I don’t have the answer. If I don’t know it, and I can’t find it, I consult someone. I consult them via email, or phone, or just by strolling to that person’s desk. Working with others to find an answer is also a skill, which was not taught much in my school either.

98

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]

I can certainly take issue with some aspects of the educational process. I was a student and a teacher who ran in the halls, for instance. I generally don’t like zero tolerance policies. But I think the point that several people in this thread are missing is the fact that there is something called civility. Sometimes you have to tolerate being bored or disinterested because that’s how life is. It won’t kill you, and it builds a little character. So you won’t bust out with the Nintendo DS when your company’s CEO is giving a speech.
[/QUOTE]

[Devil’s Advocate]But are you teaching civility if you ban cell phones? Or are you just saying, “Look, we don’t want to deal with this…we don’t WANT to teach civility, just leave the damn things at home?”

This is probably a really sucky analogy, but I’m helping my two year old learn to drink from a cup right now. Her father is annoyed because I give her an open topped glass and, predictably, she coughs and sputters when she takes too big a swig and she spills. He’d rather I make “real” cups off limits and only give her sippy cups. My thinking is that she’s not going to learn how to drink from a real glass by using a sippy cup. She can upend the sippy cup and suck from the tip and wave it all around and it doesn’t splash water anywhere. Now, most of the time, this is a good thing. But it’s not teaching her how real glasses work. If I want her to learn how real glasses work, I have to let her try a real glass.

Here’s the analogy part: if you want to teach kids how to be civil in a culture of ever present cellphones, you have to allow them cellphones. You have to teach them the civil limits on their use (for example, in lockers or off during class or whatever) and you have to enforce the consequences when they’re NOT civil, but by banning them from campus entirely, you’re NOT teaching civil use. You’re ignoring the issue completely.

I do think that school is less about the data transferred and mostly about socializing wild hairless apes. I don’t use 98% of the facts and figures I learned in school. What I do use everyday is: how to take turns, how to stand in a line, how to ask politely, and how to learn the things I do want or need to know.

99

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
And I hate to put too fine a point on it, but paying attention to the teacher = learning. Kids learn FROM THE TEACHER…
[/quote]
For me, the teacher was usually a couple chapters behind where I’d reached in the textbook by the end of the first reporting period. Ah… public schools.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
…which they can’t do if they’re on the phone. Blaming the teacher for not being interesting enough to keep kids off their phones, therefore they should be allowed to have their phones, is bullshit.
[/quote]
Who is making that argument? You can point out flaws in an argument without asserting its reverse.

I’ve definitely had teachers who taught material that wasn’t in the book, or taught material in such a way that it was significantly clearer than was presented in the book. I paid these teachers my attention and I learned things from them they were intending to teach.

For every one of those types of teachers, I’ve had a half dozen that are following a state promulgated lesson plan trying to cram us with the standardized data we’re expected to regurgitate for the state promulgated exit exams. I only listened to these teachers when they’d strayed far enough from the lesson plan to begin saying something interesting.

And for every half-dozen of those teachers I’d have one teacher that thought they were the first type… and got rather uppity if you tried to learn something in their class that wasn’t what they were teaching that day. Oddly, you probably learn the most from this type of teacher, though you don’t learn very much from what they’re actually trying to teach.

What’s this have to do with the cellphone issue? Not a whole lot. But if the cornerstone of your argument for favoring a schoolwide blanket ban is “they’ll distract from the teacher if used in class”, you’re probably overestimating your persuasiveness.

100

[QUOTE=1010011010]
What’s this have to do with the cellphone issue? Not a whole lot. But if the cornerstone of your argument for favoring a schoolwide blanket ban is “they’ll distract from the teacher if used in class”, you’re probably overestimating your persuasiveness.
[/QUOTE]

Nobody said that either. Talking on your cellphone while someone else is talking is rude. Kids aren’t supposed to just have conversations in the classroom unrelated to the subject matter, cellphone or not. But that is just one of many excellent reasons not to allow them.

I just can’t believe people are still arguing that kids should have cellphones in the classroom. There are so many excellent reasons given in this thread. Bottom line-- THEY DON’T NEED THEM. They are a liability and contribute nothing positive to the educational environment. Have it in your locker, be smart about it, no one will know. If it gets stolen, don’t go crying to the school. End of story.