OK, so we’ve established you don’t have even a minimal basic understanding of how science works. That’s an increase in our knowledge.
I provided ideas from within 2-3 hours of starting the thread. You are just a troll.
If you understand science so much better than me you just want to insult me, why don’t you tell me why the studies are wrong like this one?
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21773929&postcount=269
Just trolling as well?
Well I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I don’t think it does balance out because the scales show male celibacy is rising much faster than female celibacy, and given that guys are still flooding online dating sites more than women I don’t think the men have stopped trying overall.
Again if we are going to become like Japan celibacy and isolation will rise for both genders and then the loneliness will hit everyone. Either we find ways to reconnect as people at that stage or we adopt surrogates.
Thanks for actually taking the subject seriously and providing some discussion. I’m about done here since no one else seems to be capable of it.
Finally, I don’t think it’s necessary for anything to be 100% fulfilling the same as a relationship to “work”. Even if it provides 50% of the feeling of a relationship, maybe that’s enough to keep someone happy enough and go on with their life.
Sorry bro, but the sex robots won’t want to fuck you either… What happens when they refuse?
But not all of that rise is involuntary celibacy, as this article discusses.
Not much more, though: users of online dating are about 52% male and about 48% female.
Sounds like we’d get much better results addressing the actual problems underlying disconnection and unhappiness, to wit:
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Stop the bullying of autistic children by other children.
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Teach both boys and girls that women are autonomous individuals just as much as men are, and that nobody has any right to expect that any other individual owes them sex or love or friendship.
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Teach both boys and girls that sexual behavior is a matter of individual choices by consenting adults, and we shouldn’t be harassing or denigrating people for making different choices from ours as long as they’re not hurting anyone. Slut-shaming, virgin-shaming, and all other picking on people for their sex lives is unhealthy and needs to stop.
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Teach both boys and girls to value non-superficial attributes in a partner. If you think it’s embarrassing or humiliating to have a girlfriend who’s not beautiful or young, or a boyfriend who’s not rich or tall, that’s a problem with your attitude, not with your attractiveness level. Fat-shaming, poor-shaming, height-shaming, etc., is just as toxic and counterproductive as slut-shaming and virgin-shaming.
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Teach both boys and girls to recognize and value the many joyful aspects of life that don’t involve sex and relationships. Feeling sorry for yourself or resentful of others because of your lack of a mate, when you could instead be enjoying life in all sorts of ways that don’t require a mate, is a problem with your attitude, not with society’s “failure” to provide you with a mate.
That’s the sort of thing we should be doing (which btw has a lot of overlap with what you unreasonably denigrate as “SJW culture wars”), instead of just sitting around wishing for sexbots or inventing ways for society to “provide” unhappy men with better access to sex. Addressing the root causes of the unhappiness rather than the secondary phenomenon of the sexlessness will be better for everybody in the long run.
Of course, even if we (very unrealistically) manage to fix all those problems, it will doubtless still be true that unattractive people, on average, will have more difficulty finding sex partners than attractive people. But at least they won’t be constantly stewing in resentment over it and taking it out on other people, and they’ll be better equipped to lead a fulfilling life in other respects.
In particular, it will undercut the “misogyny terrorism” attitude prevalent in so much of inceldom. If a bunch of men believe that being hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous will motivate society to try to encourage women to have sex with them in order to make them feel better, then of course those men are incentivized to go on being hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous.
But nobody should be encouraging women to have sex with men who are hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous. Society should be trying to fix the traditional toxic attitudes about sex that end up making people unhappy, sure. But if a person who’s unhappy about not having sex chooses to become hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous over it, he’s forfeited his claim on other people’s consideration. We should save our concern and compassion for the unhappy people who aren’t taking out their frustrations on others.
::mic drop::
Phenomenal post, Kimstu.
Thanks! Really cheeses me off how incel apologists are constantly telling us how imperative it is that society Take Action of some kind to relieve the intolerable sexlessness of all these sad (and Potentially Dangerous) young men, and seem not to give a rat’s ass about Taking Action to fix any of the societal pathologies that are helping make them sad in the first place.
No, they want to believe that incels’ sadness is irrevocably ordained by evolution, but at the same time outrageously unjust and unendurable, so all society can or should do about it is to try to persuade people to have sex with them as a sacrifice for the common good. (And that’s when they’re not more or less openly advocating some form of forcing people to have sex with incels instead of just persuading them.)
Are they really trying to exert leverage, or just lashing out in nihilistic frustration?
They’re pathetically whining about how hard their lives are and demanding that other people fix it for them instead of changing themselves or their perspectives.
“No, no, no one will have sex with me so you people have to fix this for me!”
Talk to the hand. 
Are tantrumming toddlers really trying to get something they want, or just melting down in frustrated anger?
I think the answer in both cases is “Some of each”. Sure, some of it is just childish entitlement and lack of self-discipline fueling a rage reaction, but they also genuinely feel that they are owed the thing they want and try to exert pressure to get it. The present OP, for example, doesn’t seem to be having a nihilistic frustrated lash-out: he honestly thinks that society should be doing something specifically to facilitate incels’ desire for sex, and he’s trying to persuade us to agree with him.
Have you (TheFuture) understood that “a trend” does not equal “100% of cases”? No.
Have you understood that “women” aren’t something you buy in a supermarket? Apparently, but you wish you could buy women-like tools that would behave exactly as you wish, including switching off. :smack:
There’s at least one traditional culture, the Basque, in which many of the traits which are now called “on the spectrum” aren’t just viewed as acceptable but desirable; a lot of our customs are based on expectations of things such as obsesiveness, nitpicking, low tolerance for social situations… but women and men have been on a more-equal footing than those in surrounding areas, too (when a whole culture views nitpicking or being obsessive about hobbies as fine things, they’re not done only by half that culture). One of the biggest reasons for “Basque endogamy” is simply that any self-respecting Basque woman (i.e., all of us) will refuse to have sex with, much less marry, a guy who expects her to be his servant. Incels want sex serfs, not partners. They want women who are top-shelf in looks, bottom-self in self-respect, and who in the morning prepare breakfast to perfection and silently, already made up and wearing stiletto heels.
No worky.
Are the incels right about everything or not, because I got some math I don’t want to do and I was hoping to pass it off.
Having successfully met someone via online dating I would say that the incels are somewhat correct. If you aren’t a doctor hunk, you’re going to have a pretty steep hill to climb. But, I think, there’s also a strong position for guys who seem fun to hang out with - and, I suspect, most incels haven’t noticed that.
But more importantly is the question of “why”?
Ugly and serious guys can successful meet people in real life. The incel view breaks down if you’re willing to go to a bar and engage in small chat, and able to come across as “not a creep”.
That’s the issue is that, on the Internet, all guys are creeps. You immediately have a +10 creep factor hanging around your neck like an albatross and, simply, if you don’t have the other raw stats to appeal to a woman then you’re done.
This isn’t a matter of women being shallow or whatever else, it’s that they don’t want to get raped or assaulted. If they meet you in person, in a crowded place, and you’re able to successfully seem like a reasonable human being who understands how to behave like a human being, you’re immediately at -10 creep factor. It’s no longer the criteria being measured. But online, women have a fairly justified predisposition to expect that dudes be crazy. I’ll even go ahead and throw myself under the bus and admit that, unknowingly and unintentionally, I’ve been an online creep. It takes experience and practice hanging out with other human beings in real life to figure out how to behave appropriately and the Internet teaches you a different set of rules of behavior from what works in person.
Part of that is accepting that you’re an idiot and that probably you’re doing things wrong without being aware of it. And the other part is abandoning the internet and finding hobbies that women do and trying to be clear up front and in advance, should you befriend any of them, that you’re a moron who never learned to human, and to ask them to slap you if you do something stupid and set you straight.
If you want to meet someone, first make sure that you mean that in the sense that you want to have a wholesome, genuine, open, honest, and equal relationship and secondly find and embrace humility. Accept that you’re going to look like an idiot and be horribly embarrassed in some situations, but so it goes.
I agree with your last paragraph. There is no relationship that is 100% fulfilling, and I’ve been happily married for 41 years. I wouldn’t put a number on it, but way above 50%. But even 50% is a lot better than nothing.
Do you agree that a solution to the incel “problem” would be for them to approach women differently?
I went to college in the real hotbed of celibacy in Cambridge MA. I knew plenty of guys who had zero dates in 4 years. None of them blamed women for this, none of them were misogynist. They pretty much all eventually got married. Now some of them might have thought it, but the rest of us wouldn’t respond too well to this attitude. This was long before the Internet and the echo chamber anyone can find to magnify their worst characteristics.
I only knew one volcel - he became a priest - but no one would probably have called themselves incels which implies someone is forcing that status on you.
So, do you agree or disagree that incels would be much better off if they stopped thinking about paying or building someone to have an emotional relationship with them, and stopped thinking that women are somehow obligate to have an emotional relationship with them, and get out there and do the work involved in having an emotional relationship, the way the rest of us do.
But even he doesn’t think the incels’ problem is lack of sex, since he rejects prostitution as an answer. The sex therapist he does see as an answer is a simulacrom of a real relationship, with the therapist being paid to act as if she was emotionally invested in the person. Plus sex. I got that the benefit he saw in this was the fake relationship, not that the therapist might push the incel into real relationships. Which a non-sex therapist could do also. Probably better.
My, you sure seem to know a lot about us for someone who joined this month…
What does he think an expensive whore does, jump on the john’s cock?
Ain’t that suspicious? :dubious:
An option not suggested is that the incels give bisexuality a try. It doubles the dating pool (of people to shut them down). “Oh, but I’m not into guys,” they might say, but they indulge in too many online circle jerks to convince me.