I’m going to regret getting involved in this, but I read van Lommel’s Lancet paper and I’m shocked that they published it. Because it’s crap. I’m not going to go into a point-by-point, but the methods were apparently made up as they went along, and the interpretation of the results was heavily biased, IMO.
But let’s assume that van Lommel’s theory is correct, that consciousness is an EM signal of some sort that the brain tunes into and which exists independently of the brain.
I’m going to regret getting involved in this, but I read van Lommel’s Lancet paper and I’m shocked that they published it. Because it’s crap. I’m not going to go into a point-by-point, but the methods were apparently made up as they went along, and the interpretation of the results was heavily biased in favor of van Lommel’s theories, IMO. Just one example: van Lommel follows up at 2 years with only 37 of the 282 patients who denied NDE at the initial interview. Four of these 37 patients now claim an NDE. van Lommel states that this is only 1% of patients, when in truth it is 10% of the patients that he was able to follow up on. And rather than question whether this 10% new NDE claim is because of ‘false memories’, he takes them at their word and assumes that the first interview was “too soon”.
But let’s assume that van Lommel’s theory is correct, that consciousness is an EM signal of some sort that the brain tunes into and which exists independently of the brain. If I close my eyes, I perceive blackness. If my eyes are removed, I am permanently blind. Yet if I have an OBE, supposedly I can see things. Why do I need eyes to see when I am conscious, but not when I am having an OBE or NDE? Why is anybody blind or deaf, since these are apparently phenomena that do not ‘really’ require functioning body structures?
Frankly, I have no idea what this tangent is all about.
The topic of the thread is Out of Body Experiences.
In some (not quantified) number of cases that persons have reported Near Death Experiences, some (further not quantified) subset of those persons also report having experienced OBEs.
However, OBEs have been reported on numerous occasions when no NDE has been reported. Even if God has determined that we will never discover a scientific explanation for NDEs, (a point you have failed to establish at even the most basic level), I see no reason to believe that God has ordained that we cannot know whether an OBE has occurred. Where in Scripture has God made any statement that humans are prohibited from discovering that they have had experiences outside the body? The fact that Paul was unsure that an acquaintance had or did not have an OBE hardly establishes that God has prohibited all other people from knowing whether an OBE has occurred.
Even if God had made such a statement–a point that I doubt is supported by any serious analysis of Scripture–simply discovering that OBEs are real would not violate that prohibition, as it would still not provide the mechanism.
The point was raised that there is no way to prove an OBE was anything more than a hallucination. My test would provide nothing in the way of a method to determine how an OBE occurred, but it would very clearly establish that the OBE was a genuine experience out of the body. (And a failure to ever recognize the material on the paper would not, in itself, provide any evidence that an OBE had not occurred. It is a test of limited utility, but if it was successful, it would provide sufficient evidence that an actual event had occurred.)
(I will note that we could enhance the quality of the test by using a vide screen instead of a piece of paper. It could be set up to display particular images at particular times so that the images perceived by the OBE subject could be correlatedd to particular events, thus establishing whether the OBE occurred during periods of deep anaesthesia or actual brain death.)
I have posted many NDEs that were remembered months and/or years after the event. This is not that uncommon.
When you are in your body it blocks your spiritual senses, as if you put on a shell covering you with eyes to see, ears to hear, etc., when you leave your body then you can use your spiritual senses. This body also blocks your connection to God, the Oneness making you think you are alone.
I certainly see a mounting body of evidence that some people are heavily invested in wishful thinking.
From the quoted link:
So far, so good. Since the memories are probably “written” in the brain, either chemically or through charged particles, they will continue in the brain to be brought out when the electromagnetic system is brought back into play.
Then
This is pure speculation without any substantiation. Until some test is devised to demonstrate that the experiences of “consciousness” occur during brain death–a point that has NOT been established–then there is no reason to assume (or even believe) that anything in this quoted passage has any beraing on reality. It is not a furthering of science, but mere speculation based on unproven assumptions.
All current OBE/NDE research clearly demonstrate that consciousness is alive after the death of the brain and body. From Dr. Peter Fenwick’s collection of veridical OBEs (experiences verified by physicians and staff during surgery) to the research being conducted at several universities. It is this evidence that makes this research unique and worthy of continued study.
Below is a quote from the International Association of Near Death Studies:
Clear evidence has been established that shows consciousness continues to live after the death of the brain and body.
They have had Swami’s also lower their heart rate and blood pressure (tht were not buried) so they could be almost declared dead, the Swami’s said it takes many years of practice to do this, they are not dead nor were they near death. I can lower my heart rate and have taught my daughter to lower hers, but not to the extent that a Swami would.
I misspoke it wasn’t the brain they numb,but the eye,and I had no pain and didn’t need to wear a patch as I did with the first surgery (which was 12 years earlier). I just had to refrain from bending down for a week, and not do yard work. My sight is very much improved. I can now see 20/20 with glasses.
Yes, I have read about the ability to do this. I read where one was buried for 15 days. There were instruments monitoring his vital signs, his heartbeat lower to one a minute, and respiration one every 30 minutes or so. It was like a state of suspended animation. He came out of it fine and healthy. The importance of this for us is to understand is the control the mind has on the body and therefor the ability to change or lives with will.
Note that I am not even arguing agains the possibility. What I am pointing out is that claims that any person has perceived physical events surrounding them at a point where there brain has ceased to function have NOT been verified. There are dozens of anecdotes, but, as with Pam Reynolds, the timelines have not been established. Everything that Pam Reynolds claimed to have experienced could have been the result of her continued functioning after the initial administration of anaesthesia but before the brain was cooled and drained of blood. All other reports–at least all other reports that you have cited–have depended on interviews with collections of people from days to weeks after the event and have never even been documented to the extent that Ms. Reynolds surgery has been documented. In her case, her initial responses to Dr. Sabom surprised him so much that he apparently went back and saved records of the surgery to compare against her claims. Those records, as I have already pointed out, simply do not establish that her OBE iccurred during the brain death part of the surgery. No other interview with persons claiming to have experienced NDEs has even that much information.
If you wish to believe that her OBE continued after brain death, you are welcome to do so and even to post that that is your belief. When you post that “Clear evidence has been established that shows consciousness continues to live after the death of the brain”, you are simply making it up. Go back and read your most recent links to “scientific studies.” With the exception of Dr. Sabom, not one of them presents any evidence that the persons quoted know the time of the OBE in relation to the time of any brain activity cessation.
In all research and studies of OBE/NDE phenomenon the doctors, surgeons, and staff in attendance witnessed and verified that the patient was clinically dead during the events where the patient accurately described events occuring during the time he was clinically dead. If this were not true then a whole lot of researchers would be collaborating to provide misinformation, which they are not. These researches took place in different countries, at different times, yet all show clear evidence of the consciousness continuing to live after the clinical death of the brain and body. This evidence is further strengthened by the thousands of experiencers’ testimony of their OBE/NDE events. I will post an OBE/NDE experience that clearly shows the patient could “see” even though the patient was never conscious, and at times clinically dead, while in the operating room.
That’s interesting about the swamis but I don’t consider dropping your pulse and BP all that big a deal. Nor do I believe it takes years of training to learn this. Heck, I’ve done it while playing with a drug-store monitor.
OTOH, I’d like to see such things verified. Instead of burying the old boy, why not just shove a plastic bag over his head, seal it well around his neck, and wait for a few minutes? I’d think that a test like that would be much more believable and less open to trickery.
I’d also put serious money that the guy wouldn’t last more than a few minutes before he tore his way out of the bag.
I wrote this post far past my bedtime and want to add to it.
Our bodies are inhabited by our spiritual selves, the real us, the body blocks us from feeling or remembering our connection with the Oneness, or God, or the Light which is encountered upon the death of the body. The reason for this is learning. The physical is like a school, that operates in time and space to teach us how to focus our thoughts and learn about who we really are. If the body is damaged then we can no longer use the damaged part, but we (our spirit) are never damaged. So in reality the whole physical world including our bodies are a grand illusion used to teach us. We may think we are brilliant, but we’re only in kindergarten in relation to the spiritual world. Now it is very difficult for OBE/NDE experiencers to live in this world with the knowledge they have learned from their experience. It takes years to adjust, and some never do. Those that do adjust try to help others with the knowledge they have. Some are more successful than others.
So, it is easy to understand why Jesus and other Master Teachers ask us to look within ourselves for the answers we need. Jesus said: “the Kingdom of God lies within you.” He was right.
Whether you believe in God or not, you can still benefit from the spiritual teachings if you so desire.
I know this post will not be met with gladness, so if the questions are sincere, I will try to answer them.
I used to own dozens of books on subjects such as this. I trained and did the breathing and meditation and believed with all my heart. Then I graduated high school and realized that this wasn’t working for me and that the authors of the books were cons and frauds and that I had been nothing more than a sucker.
Since then, I’ve required a bit more than earnest personal testimony to be convinced.