Scientists recreate Out-of-Body Experience

[Omegaman]

@Miller

I wouldn’t. He may have had a “natural” OBE, but he has no experience at all with the set up described in the article, and has no basis at all for making the comparison that he did. Which is not to say that he’s necessarily wrong. It could very well be that there’s a vast difference between a “real” and artificial OBE. But lekatt is not in a position to know if that’s the case, and has already demonstrated his heavy bias against these scientists, so he’s not reliably objective on the subject.

Well it looks like that’s what they’re talking about with the video goggles. I guess it might be more spectacular. Have you ever worn any? I remember about three years ago they were supposed to be the latest and greatest thing so maybe they are. I think Lekatt just gets defensive because, well, I guess, he’s kind of prepared for it. Cut it out, man.

[Miller]

@Omegaman

Well it looks like that’s what they’re talking about with the video goggles. I guess it might be more spectacular. Have you ever worn any? I remember about three years ago they were supposed to be the latest and greatest thing so maybe they are.

Nope, never worn 'em. Which is why I’m not stating definitively what the subjects in this test experienced while they were wearing them. It could be that it’s nothing at all like a “real” OBE. It could be that they’ve managed to perfectly re-create it. I’m not in a position to say one way or the other. And neither is lekatt. Because neither of us have undergone the experiement described in the OP.

I think Lekatt just gets defensive because, well, I guess, he’s kind of prepared for it.

His very first post in this thread baselessly accused the scientists in question of fraud. That’s going a little bit past “defensive,” I think.

Cut it out, man.

Sorry, I get short tempered when I deal with close-minded people.

[tomndebb]

@Omegaman

I think Lekatt just gets defensive because, well, I guess, he’s kind of prepared for it. Cut it out, man.

Whatever reasons lekatt may have for being defensive, he has already demonstrated in this thread that he wished to claim to be the only authority and arbiter for all things related to OBE. He has done nothing to determine whether the subjects of these experiments have anything to compare their experiences to OBE. He has maliciously accused the scientists performing these experiments of dishonesty even though he has no idea what their actual intention was in performing these experiments, relying, instead, on truncated quotes and speculation from the popular media. Despite the fact that MrDibble has both had an OBE and knows another person who has had something that might have been an NDE, lekatt has set himself up as the final arbiter of what they “really” experienced. lekatt also has a notable habit of trying to slide personal insults just under the wire, then acting all wide-eyed innocence when he is called on his actions.

For a poster who goes on and on about how other posters are not open to new ideas and how they do not demonstrate enough love, he is pretty blase about dismissing any anecdote that does not conform to his own preconceived notions and generally demonstrates nothing resembling love to anyone else. Until lekatt is willing to demonstrate the same behavior he demands of others, I see no reason why anyone should cut him any slack.

[Omegaman]

@Miller

Sorry, I get short tempered when I deal with close-minded people.

I’m sorry I didn’t clarify. I mean’t Lekatt. He catches hell almost every time he posts but as he expects people to be open to his ideas he has to be open to others.

I think this kind of adresses what TND said as well.

[Moe]

It may be a little late at this point in the thread but if anyone’s still interested, I strongly recommend you take about 15 minutes to listen to the final segment of this episode of Radiolab. (start it at about 45 mins.).

The research discussed in the linked clip seems to come a lot closer to inducing the experience of an OBE than the study mentioned in the OP (which seems to simply be about fooling the perceptual system. Optical illusions do the very same thing.). The clip presents the research of Dr. James Winnery who used a centrifuge to recreate the extreme gravitational effects experienced by pilots, which in turn induces an OBE.

It’s a facinating segment from a facinating show.

[Voyager]

@Omegaman

Well it looks like that’s what they’re talking about with the video goggles. I guess it might be more spectacular. Have you ever worn any? I remember about three years ago they were supposed to be the latest and greatest thing so maybe they are. I think Lekatt just gets defensive because, well, I guess, he’s kind of prepared for it. Cut it out, man.

I have worn them, in a demo. The person running it zoomed the camera various places, and I got to look at myself. I did not have an OBE, as far as I can tell. The experimenters here did a bunch of other stuff also, which worked with the goggles to induce it.

The reason why lekatt refuses to admit the scientist induced a “real” OBE, or that MrDibble had one, is that this would be admitting that the brain can manufacture this experience without the need for NDEs or anything mystical.
The brain is a complex and wonderful thing. Did you ever stop to think how come we know where we are in space? It’s not a trivial thing to know - robots have a hard time figuring it out. If we have parts of the brain that do this for us, can’t a malfunction in these parts, or spurious inputs, cause us to think we’re someplace else? Any complex organism or machine has many ways of going wrong or being fooled. The miracle is that it works so well for so many people for all of the time.

When you were a kid did you ever ride that piece of playground equipment that spun you around? Did you feel like you were still spinning when you got off? Maybe lekatt feels his spirit was still spinning, while you and I know the sensation comes from the brain being fooled. I suspect OBEs are the same thing, more complex.

[Omegaman]

@Voyager

IWhen you were a kid did you ever ride that piece of playground equipment that spun you around? Did you feel like you were still spinning when you got off? Maybe lekatt feels his spirit was still spinning, while you and I know the sensation comes from the brain being fooled. I suspect OBEs are the same thing, more complex.

I do remember that as a kid. It seemed like the whole world flipped upside down. I can also remember getting bed spins when I would be drunk and almost enjoying it sometimes (sometimes puking) but I think it might be something I shouldn’t be messing around with. I have a hard enough time navigating through a room full of furniture without doing a bull in a china shop impression. Oh, by the way, thanks for the info on the goggles. I hope we don’t scare Lekatt away. Like some of the more on the edge people that hang here it’s like he has just a little piece of the truth and some day they are all going to come together and then then the shit is going to get RIGHT. Anyway, thanks again.

[lekatt]

@Moe

It may be a little late at this point in the thread but if anyone’s still interested, I strongly recommend you take about 15 minutes to listen to the final segment of this episode of Radiolab. (start it at about 45 mins.).

The research discussed in the linked clip seems to come a lot closer to inducing the experience of an OBE than the study mentioned in the OP (which seems to simply be about fooling the perceptual system. Optical illusions do the very same thing.). The clip presents the research of Dr. James Winnery who used a centrifuge to recreate the extreme gravitational effects experienced by pilots, which in turn induces an OBE.

It’s a facinating segment from a facinating show.

I downloaded the file and listened to the last 15 minutes as you asked. Yes, I believe the ones that actually looked down on their bodies did indeed have an OBE. It was a short one without the usual events that can happen and it was induced by draining the blood from the brain producing a near death situation. I have always said that scientists could induce OBEs, NDEs, by duplicating the process of dying, either with drugs or anything else. It is the near-ness to death that triggers the experience. The method of getting there does not matter.

This one below is more typical of a near death experience, the injury was severe and not easy to recover from as the astronauts experiences.

Want to add that many of these experiences have been verified by doctors and emergency room personal. These are called veridical near death experiences and are the subject of a lot of research.

Giving this link again for those really interested: Question 28 about Near Death Experiences.

I remember hearing my parents screaming and crying, with me trying to tell them I was going to be alright. It didn’t dawn on me that they could not see or hear me, until I went back to that room and saw that I was looking down on me.

Wow, then I felt myself floating down a long hall to the operating room and I watched for a while only to see a beautiful light. So bright, with a blue aura. I went into the light and I was met by spirits from my family who had went before. My grandmother told me I had to go back, but I begged her to stay. She stated that it was not my time yet. But I went passed her only to see this figure who touched me on my shoulder and said “no, your time is not now, you must go back.” I clung to this figures’ robe and said that I feel so much peace here, a great sense of calmness, this place is so beautiful, but gently I was ushered towards another light, that was yellow and white.

Then I saw a hand reach up to grab hold of mine and the figure told me to “take the hand, you will be alright, for it is not your time.” So I reached for the hand, only to feel like I was in a vacuum and with a thump I was back in my body.

[lekatt]

@Omegaman

I’m sorry I didn’t clarify. I mean’t Lekatt. He catches hell almost every time he posts but as he expects people to be open to his ideas he has to be open to others.

I think this kind of adresses what TND said as well.

Thanks for the kind words, and I know I need to work on not being defensive. What happens to me most is I start posting to whatever the OP is, then suddenly the subject changes from the OP to me. That is when all the negative stuff comes down. If we could just stay on topic and discuss or debate the OP that would be fine. I will try not to answer posts that concern me and not the OP in the future.

I don’t have any plans on leaving the board as of now, there has been a lot of progress made here. God Bless and all best wishes for you.

[lekatt]

It just occured to me that most people on this board never read a real experience, so I have one more I would like to share. Last one, really. But there are plenty on the Internet.

When I was 11 years old, I got a sore throat that didn’t go away and because I come from a family of 10, going to the doctor was a luxury. The sore throat, left untreated, was discovered to be strep and since it cannot go away with antibiotics, the strep infection settled in my kidneys and I then had a kidney infection/diseased called Nephritis (Bright’s Disease). The second night in the hospital, I started to cry when my Mom and Dad were going home after visiting, because instinctively, I knew I would never see them again. Because I was a kid, I knew they were keeping this from me; however, the body and the mind KNOW. They left wondering why I was acting so strange. Eleven year olds don’t cry like that when Mommy and Daddy leave. Well, at 11 p.m. that night, the hospital called to tell my parents that it wasn’t likely that I would survive the night. Last rites were given and they monitored me all night, every 15 minutes.

In between the blood pressure monitorings, I remember being in the corner of the room, near the ceiling and looking down at my body as the nurse took my blood pressure. I wondered, hmmmmmmmmm, what the heck am I doing down there? I’m obviously up here! Seemed strange, but I didn’t worry about it. All of a sudden, there was a suction and I was moving through a tunnel at very, very, very high speed. When I came to an abrupt halt, I noticed 8 lighted beings off to my right and a big, beautiful white light directly in front of me.

Wow, I thought, and started heading towards that white light. I remember feeling a lot of peace, not sick, and the light seemed to have a “personality” or “essence” to it. It wasn’t just a big 'ol floodlight. Felt great and I loved it. Just as I was walking towards the light, the lighted beings (angels–no wings) called me over to the side and told me to wait for a more superior being to arrive. I waited. The being arrived and then showed me part of my past and some of my future.

In particular, my little brother, Tim. Well, Tim is very hyper and a bit of a brat, so my response to the angels when shown some “footage” of Tim acting up and not being nice to me was, “Well, yea, Timmy’s a brat.” as if everyone in the Universe already knew that and there was nothing more to know. I was told by the angels, “Do not make their problem, your problem, Dear One.” OK, I thought and thoughts are how you communicate here, not voice. It didn’t make much sense, but OK. I was then asked if I wanted to go into the light or back to the body. This seemed like Sophie’s Choice to me, so I looked back down the tunnel and then turned my head and back to the light, back down the tunnel, back to the light, back and forth, back and forth.

I understood that there were boundaries there and that if I went into the light, I could not come back and visa versa. I also understood that what I could have there I couldn’t have here and what I could have with my body, I couldn’t have there. I was told that I would be ill and that was not negotiable. I was also told that they would never leave me and all I had to do was ask for their help and help would arrive. At that point I said, “I want to live.” and as I finished the thought, I felt that same strong suction grab me again and carry me back down the tunnel. I did not re-enter the body gently. It was like a big BAM! and I opened my eyes and the nurse was standing next to me taking my blood pressure … again or still? Well, I looked up at her and said, “I’m going to be OK, now.” She looked at me as if I was delusional, but then I started healing in leaps and bounds leaving the docs and staff with their heads spinning.

I remember they wheeled me downstairs to get an EKG the next day and I thought, “You’re a day late and a dollar short. It has been decided. I’m fine now.” Well, the doctor didn’t really understand why I was healing all of a sudden, but attributed it to the penicillin shot I got. I’m sure it helped, but well, no. He kept me there for 2 weeks and then released me. I healed completely, but at 31 years old, almost exactly 20 years later, I was diagnosed with a form of Muscular Dystrophy, which is incurable.

I remembered that I came back because in the moment I decided, I thought even if my body doesn’t work quite right, I will always have the help of these angels and I want to come back for my shot at love. I understood that everything was worth it for love. I wanted it that much. Even though love was in the tunnel, clearly and abundantly, love with a body and in the physical world was a gift and I knew it and was willing to do so with a body that wouldn’t work right. This was not negotiable. It was dictated to me and I needed to choose if I would return, not what kind of body I could return to.

Ironically, even though I was cured of the kidney disease one year later, the diagnosis 20 years later meant my family would be tested in ways I couldn’t imagine. I always asked for help from my angels and I did not hide the fact that I believed in angels. This labeled me as “nuts” for my family to ridicule and my brother Tim and sister Jenny has refused to allow me to see their children. They don’t want them to have “my influence.” On Christmas, when I was in the hospital for surgery, they all brought me a figurine of an angel to the hospital, but then refused to let me see their kids.

Strange. So, the advice that the angels gave me, “Do not make their problem, your problem, Dear One.” now makes sense to me, many, many, many years later. There have been days I have regretted choosing to come back, but overall, I am challenged to discover my place in this world and yes, I have been asked to marry. I have said no to all. They would have provided security, etc., but not the love I stood in when I went to that white light. I know that it is out there and I am not afraid of my family members telling me that I am some loser for not marrying.

When I go back to that tunnel with a white light, I do not want to have to say, “Yes, I know you taught me what love is when I was here last, but I had a little peer pressure, so I married Mr. OK. I didn’t want to be the last kid to get married, you know.” I can handle the ridicule. I want what I experienced in that tunnel with a white light or nothing at all. I was a kid though, and acceptance of my illness and my body in this culture has been brutal. I have been told many reasons why I am ill ranging from “got myself sick (and supported by the Bible).” to I must have eaten the wrong foods, been depressed, or am trying to get attention.

None of the above are true and I don’t feel the need to prove that to anyone. My values are different from my family’s and when people meet me and my family, they swear I was not raised in the family I have. Some other guidance has been there … healing me and loving me.

[Czarcasm]

Thank you for the story, lekatt-I’ll file it with all the others you’ve given us over the years when we’ve asked you for hard evidence.

[lekatt]

@Czarcasm

Thank you for the story, lekatt-I’ll file it with all the others you’ve given us over the years when we’ve asked you for hard evidence.

You are welcome.

Hard evidence coming up: Question 28 about Near Death Experiences.

Another one you can relate to: A Near Death Experience, No. 194.

[lekatt]

@lekatt

You are welcome.

Hard evidence coming up: Question 28 about Near Death Experiences.

Another one you can relate to: A Near Death Experience, No. 194.

Sorry, should have posted a quote for you to read:

Multiple medical doctors including Peter Fenwick a respected neuropsychiatrist, Pim Van Lommel a cardiologist, Sam Parnia, Bruce Greyson, Ian Stevenson, Melvin Morse, Michael Sabom, and numerous others, will tell you the same thing.

“Simultaneous recording of heart rate and brain output show that within 11 seconds of the heart stopping, the brainwaves go flat. Now, if you read the literature on this, some skeptical people claim that in this state there is still brain activity, but, in fact, the data are against this in both animals and humans. The brain is not functioning, and you are not going to get your electrical activity back again until the heart restarts.” (Dr. Peter Fenwick)

Dr. Sam Parnia: “During cardiac arrest brainstem activity is rapidly lost. It should not be able to sustain such lucid processes or allow the formation of lasting memories.”

Pim Van Lommel’s well-known research study published in The Lancet, a leading medical journal, also notes that cerebral activity flatlines within 4 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest.

“How could a clear consciousness outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? . . . Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. In our prospective study of patients that were clinically dead (flat EEG, showing no electrical activity in the cortex and loss of brain stem function evidenced by fixed dilated pupils and absence of the gag reflex) the patients report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, or memory from early childhood occurred, as well as perceptions from a position out and above their ‘dead’ body.” (Van Lommel, Van Wees, Meyers, Elfferich (2001). Near-Death Experience in Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands. Lancet.)

[Czarcasm]

@lekatt

You are welcome.

Hard evidence coming up: Question 28 about Near Death Experiences.

Another one you can relate to: A Near Death Experience, No. 194.

The first link goes nowhere near the specific claims you’ve made concerning the afterlife, and the second link is…yet another story.

[monavis]

I am not an expert on NDE’s or OBE’s but I do know the brain can do some strange things. My brother had brain surgery and during it he was not put to sleep and he told me of hearing music and an orchestra, as the surgeon touched different parts of the brain there was different sensations; since I had what I thought was a NDE when I was “not” near death (for me at least) it was just the anesthetic. Just last year after a angiogram I was well awake and when I would close my eyes I saw beautiful scenes like a slide show, so the effect on the human brain can be very interesting. it just lasted a few minuets the doctor said it was the effect of the anesthetic and I believe that was the truth.

I wonder if any atheist, Hindu, or person of other belief systems have ever saw Jesus,or had a NDE.

Monavis

[kanicbird]

@monavis

I wonder if any atheist, Hindu, or person of other belief systems have ever saw Jesus,or had a NDE.

I’ve heard yes, but it goes both ways where a person of any belief system may ‘meet’ a major figure of any belief system.

[Czarcasm]

@kanicbird

I’ve heard yes, but it goes both ways where a person of any belief system may ‘meet’ a major figure of any belief system.

Cite, please.

[ForumBot]

@monavis

My brother had brain surgery and during it he was not put to sleep

:eek: The only thing worse than that is waking up during eye surgery.

[lekatt]

@Czarcasm

The first link goes nowhere near the specific claims you’ve made concerning the afterlife, and the second link is…yet another story.

The first link is about research that shows our consciousness will live after the death of our brain and body. It is good evidence of a separation of brain and consciousness. Thereby showing the brain does not create our consciousness. Whatever else I have said about the life after death comes from my personal experience, and is reinforced by thousands of similar experiences by other people.

[Der_Trihs]

@ForumBot

:eek: The only thing worse than that is waking up during eye surgery.

Not really, from what I’ve heard. You can’t see what’s happening, and there are no nerve endings in the brain; it’s numb.

As for stories about NDEs, I’m sure you can recount any number of mystic, profound sounding ones. As long as you or those you listen to leave out the NDEs that are undramatic or non-religious hallucinations they can sound very cosmic I guess; a story of a man who has an NDE where he floats through a tunnel of TV screens into the light and meets Donald Duck wouldn’t be repeated much by the woo-woo community.