I’ve already pointed to the evidence for this. Ever since UK citizenship was created in 1948, the denizens of territories becoming independent of the UK have lost UK citizenship, unless they had some connnection to the UK independent of their connection with the newly independent territory. This has happened every single time. And that’s a lot of times.
Again, i have already referred you to the evidence on how this worked in the Irish case; I have referred to the specific UK legislation which deals with the status of Irish people in UK nationality law, and I have explained that it did not preserve UK citizenship in the way you seem to think. You haven’t responded to this at all.
I’m the one who should be rolling his eyes, Lyonessite. I’ve already ask you for a cite that accepting Scottish citizenship would be voluntary. You’ve chosen not to provide a cite, and also to ignore the contrary cite I offered suggesting that Scottish citizenship was likely to be automatic.
There’s little point in calling for evidence, ignoring the evidence offered in response to your call, and then calling for evidence again. A better strategy is to engage with the evidence already offered, and to offer some of your own. Either would be a start, to be honest.
The UK is not ‘decolonising’ Scotland. As with Ireland it is separating a single state. Scotland and England were both separate kingdoms that united; despite England’s economic dominance, the relationship between Scotland and Engand differs from those between the UK and its colonies.
Your view of British citizenship is not realistic.
Anyone who has lived in Scotland for 10 years at some stage of their life will be ALLOWED to apply to BECOME a Scottish citizen after independence, according to the white paper.
It will also be AVAILABLE to anyone with a Scottish grandparent or parent, through a system of citizenship by descent. Those who will automatically be considered Scottish citizens are British citizens “habitually resident” in Scotland - including those who have a dual citizenship with another country. Scottish-born citizens currently living outside the country will also be considered citizens. “This Government proposes an inclusive model of citizenship for people whether or not they define themselves as primarily or exclusively Scottish or wish to become a Scottish passport holder,” the document states. “People in Scotland are accustomed to multiple identities, be they national, regional, ethnic, linguistic or religious and a commitment to a multicultural Scotland will be a cornerstone of the nation on independence.” A Scottish passport will be available to anyone who acquires Scottish citizenship
So your own link confirms what I said, Lyonessite. British citizens habitually resident in Scotland on independence day will automatically become Scottish citizens. So will British citizens resident anywhere in the world who were born in Scotland.
The British citizens who will have to apply for Scottish citizenship will be those who weren’t born there *and *don’t live there, but still have some connection with Scotland (e.g. lived there at some stage for 10 years) and want, on the basis of that connection, to apply for Scottish citizenship.
As for whether the UK is “decolonising” Scotland, I agree, it’s not. I’ve already said - twice - that I wouldn’t expect the UK to remove British citizenship from newly-minted Scots citizens. All I have said is that they can strip the denizens of newly-independent territories of British citizenship, they have regularly done so in the past, and they would not violate the Convention against Statelessness by doing so.
And, since you raise the Irish experience, I’ll add that if they take that for their model, they would do so again. The status preserved for Irish citizens in 1948/49 was not that of British citizenship, but that of Commonwealth citizenship, coupled with a permanent right of entry into and abode in the UK.
Having said all that, I fully expect that British citizens who acquire Scottish citizenship on independence (whether automatically or by application) will retain their British citizenship. But their children, born after independence, won’t acquire British citizenship unless further conditions, some connection with rump UK, are satisfied
Can you not read English. All those people will be ‘eligible’ for that citizenship but will not be given it automatcally. Application for citizenship will be necessary. There us no automatic acquisition of Scottish Citizenship, but eligibilty to Scottish Citozenship. Citizenship cannot be imposed.
I do agree that children born after Independence will not b automatically be British citizens IF AND ONLY IF they were not born of British Citizens. But children of British citizens born anywhere in the world are, if registered, awarded British Citizenship. Their own children only get British Citizenship if they are born in the UK.
This particular argument is now closed. Please note I have some experience of this matter.
The above discussion on citizenship exhibits one of the main misconceptions on independence by people who are constrained by a colonial attitude. Scotland is not and never has been a colony. Legally it is an equal power with England and Wales in a Union. This makes the ‘Independence’ of Scotland different from those of the dominions or colonies. The latter were ‘allowed’ to leave British control with their own assets and rights without any necessary claim on the assets and rights of the mother country. But Scotland is an integral part of the mother country. Having paid into the system For the last fifty years at above the nominal tax take per head of the rest of the UK, Scotland has actual and nominal ownership of a proportion of the physical and figurative assets of the State.
Hence, on separation, about ten per cent of certain physical assets (the army, navy, airforce and coastguard, embassies, security services, civil service petsonnel and property, the Bank of England etc.) and nominal assets such as the pound sterling.
To understand Scottish independence properly, it is necessary to drop the colonial attitude.
I can read English as, evidently, can UDS. Specifically, I can read the table in the White Paper that lays it out clearly. (p273).
Current Status Scottish Citizenship?
At THE DATE OF Independence
British citizen habitually Yes, **automatically** a Scottish citizen
resident in Scotland
on day one of independence
British citizens born in Yes, **automatically** a Scottish citizen
Scotland but living outside of
Scotland on day one of independence
After THE DATE of Independence
Child born in Scotland to at least Yes, **automatically **a Scottish citizen
one parent who has
Scottish citizenship or indefinite
leave to remain at
the time of their birth
Child born outside Scotland to Yes, **automatically **a Scottish citizen
at least one parent (the birth must be registered in
who has Scottish citizenship Scotland to take effect)
etc. etc.
Are you under the idea that when the Republic of Ireland separated from the UK, that its then current citizens were stripped of their full British Citizenship. (They were not). Everyone born in Northern Ireland, even currently, has Irish nationality nominally, Republican or Unionist, yet no one loses their British nationality.
That is **from **the White Paper! It could not be clearer.
For the record, the words “eligible” or “eligibility” appear a total of 11 times in the White Paper. None is in the section on citizenship and none is in reference to citizenship. The closest you get is the statement that citizens will be eligible for a passport - but the paper is clear that having a passport is not a requirement for citizenship.
The word that does occur in the White Paper in relationship to citizenship is “automatically”.
Until ypu explain how people like Yvette Copper and Ian Duncan Smith would be stripped of their British Citizenship, you have no coherent argument. Explain that…
Who is eligible for Brotish Citizenship as of right?
"From 1 January 1983, a child born in the UK to a parent who is a British citizen or ‘settled’ in the UK is automatically a British citizen by birth…
"Between 1949 and 1982, birth in the UK or a Crown Colony was sufficient in itself to confer the status of Citizen of United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) irrespective of the status of parents, although only CUKCs with a connection to the UK (i.e, birth in the UK or has a UK-born parent or grandparent) would have right of adobe in the UK after 1971 and would eventually become British citizens in 1983. CUKCs without a connection to the UK would become either British Overseas Territories citizens or British Overseas citizens in 1983 depending on whether they have a connection with another BOT. …
““British citizenship by descent” is the category for the children born outside the UK or an Overseas Territory to a British citizen. Rules for acquiring British citizenship by descent depend on when the person was born.”
Note the lack of exceptions for possessing or gaining any other nationality.
A summary of the powers of the Government to revoke Ritish Citizenship:
Under the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, people with dual nationality who are British nationals can be deprived of their British citizenship if the Secretary of State is satisfied that “deprivation is conducive to the public good”; there is a right of appeal.[33] This provision has been in force since 16 June 2006 when the Immigration, Nationality and Asylum Act 2006 (Commencement No 1) Order 2006 came into force.[34] Loss of British nationality in this way applies to people born in the UK as British citizens and who also hold another nationality.[33][35] As the provision applies only to dual nationals, its application cannot render a person stateless.
The Home Office does not issue information on these cases and is resistant to answering questions,[33] for example under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.[36] As of 15 July 2013 at least 17 people had been deprived of their British citizenship, in most cases on the recommendation of MI5. It appears that the government usually waits until the person has left Britain, then sends a warning notice to their British home and signs a deprivation order a day or two later.[33] Appeals are heard at the highly secretive Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC), where the government can submit evidence that cannot be seen or challenged by the appellant.[33]
Previously since 2003 under the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, British nationals could be deprived of their citizenship only if the Secretary of State was satisfied they were responsible for acts seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom or an Overseas Territory.
British nationals who are naturalised or registered may lose British nationality if it was obtained by fraud or concealment of a material fact. The nationality laws of the US, Canada and Australia have similar provisions to revoke local nationality from citizens who gained such citizenship via naturalisation.
In summary, according to current legislation, British Citizenship by birth,descent, or naturalisation, once gained, is not revocable except under very limited circumstances.
The independence of Scotland would be accomplished by a new law, though. Parliament is supreme, so you can’t just quote old laws and declare that they are the law forever and ever.
The equivalent argument is "As Parliament is supreme, they could if they chose refuse any compensation to Scotland for its input into the union over the centuries. That would make the rump UK a pariah state. There are international conventions on separation of sovereign states. Just because it is possible does not mean that it could be done with impunity.
Equally should Scotland become a sovereign state without such agreement, it could blockade Faslane and repudiate its debt. Such things are just not possible between democratic law-following states.
Game on! According to Ruth Davidson’s comment in First Minister’s Questions, Theresa May is going to deny a referendum until 'after Brexit is clear". The later the referendum, the worse the result of Brexit will be for Scotland.
So we now enter a three year long referendum campaign with no expenditure limits until the last three months! In the long campaign before the last referendum the citizenship moved from thirty percent to 45 percent. Now there is only a small gap to close.
